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Post by emmaandstar on Apr 6, 2009 13:27:38 GMT 1
I also use the clicker as an intermediate bridge. I had a job with getting the 'hand to the bum bag' as a terminal bridge with the S horse so I use 'good girl' as my terminal bridge. So I suppose from that point of view technically I don't give a treat for every click, we have between 1-3 clicks (but not hugely spaced out, sometimes almost simultaneously) before the treat arrives. Personally I think this method is very good for shaping the behaviour, like gradually asking for a slightly longer touch of the target for example.
The clickless treat is a bridge between getting rid of the clicker and treat all together, something you should really be looking to do at the earliest possible opportunity. Once the treat becomes variable ie., they don't know if they're getting it or not this has been shown to strengthen the conditioned behaviour, I think there is actual behavioural research behind this.
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Post by stybba on Apr 6, 2009 13:33:47 GMT 1
The clickless treat is a bridge between getting rid of the clicker and treat all together, something you should really be looking to do at the earliest possible opportunity. Once the treat becomes variable ie., they don't know if they're getting it or not this has been shown to strengthen the conditioned behaviour, I think there is actual behavioural research behind this. Oh right, I see. I think this is the part where Mr. Hart and I are going to part company (I've just ordered his book, God I'm so norty!). At the moment (i.e. where I am learning-wise) I don't see why you would want to get rid of the click/treat entirely. To me it's a bit like getting rid of saying 'thank you', when someone does something for you.
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Post by emmaandstar on Apr 6, 2009 13:45:53 GMT 1
You aren't anywhere being near norty, I am Amazon's best customer, him indoors is always muttering about bookcases I have to admit I do still continue to occasionally treat for established behaviours, mainly because I'm a softie I don't continue to click for them though. I also think it's very useful to develop other rewards than food. Currently we're experimenting with bottom scratches (her, not me ) for picking up feet and I'd like to to see if I could impliment a verbal reward. I think it depends on the horse, for some just being quiet and still could possibly be a reward.
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Post by stybba on Apr 6, 2009 14:00:37 GMT 1
I see what you mean. I think in my case though, I want to continue using food as a reward. I say this because I give scratches, pats etc. as a sign of affection, and I only ever give treats in connection with the clicker, as a reward for doing something. So for me, using this system, there is a clear differentiation between the horse being rewarded, and the horse being petted with affection. What I mean is that I want to be able to pet my horse without necessarily rewarding him. I'm not sure that is very clear, sorry.
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clarea
Olympic Poster
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Post by clarea on Apr 6, 2009 14:02:17 GMT 1
LOL I'm confused now (doesn't take much ), i think i will have to do a bit more research before i start anything.
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Post by emmaandstar on Apr 6, 2009 14:11:15 GMT 1
Well the distinction I have is bumbag+clicker=training Star and the donks & William know when the bumbag is out we are training, treats are available. I have to make that clear distinction or William will be frisking me at every available opportunity Plus that is why I got bitten by Star before, there was no clear distinction for her as to when treats were available or not. I quite often wander over to her in the field and give her a scratchy sort of mutual grooming thingy, which is a bonding rather than a reward. I really don't know how it will work out, I just play things by ear and adjust as I go along really
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Post by stybba on Apr 6, 2009 14:24:56 GMT 1
Sorry clare, don't let us put you off. It is worth doing some research, as it is a very effective, if precision tool. Like I said before, you have to find a method that suits you.
I agree Emma, you do have to play it by ear a little bit don't you.
I don't use a bumbag, I have nuts in my pocket all the time, as I firmly believe that a training opportunity, or an instance where training may need to be reinforced, may arrive at any moment.
Say for example when I have the horse's teeth rasped on Wednesday, that Tilly starts getting a bit nervous and pushy when she sees the vet (a highly likely scenario btw.)
I will use long soothing strokes on her neck to calm her, and when she is exhibiting the desired calm behaviour, then I will click and treat her.
I'm not saying my method (although, not really mine, its Alex Kurland's) is better than yours, I'm just saying that in that specific instance, I need to differentiate between the stroking in order to bring about the calm behaviour, the bridge (click), and the reward (treat).
I don't have a beginning and an end to my clicker sessions, I use it as and when I feel it is required.
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Post by emmaandstar on Apr 6, 2009 14:37:23 GMT 1
As I always say, there's always more than one way to rub a rabbit! And echo stybba, don't let us put you off CT, it's always a good thing to have as much different knowledge of different ways of doing it as possible because every horse is different. I do follow the Ben Hart principle of bumbag=training and I finish the session with a jackpot of swede/carrot or a mint so she knows it's over. I used to always have treats in my pocket and reward for various things. Then one day I weigh taped her, she evidently thought a reward should be forthcoming for having a tape around her and when it wasn't I got bitten on the arm. I knew then I was causing confusion and so I had to change things. But this won't apply to every horse, it's just what happened with mine. I know what you mean that every opportunity is a training opportunity, if we go out for a walk I take the bumbag because you don't know what will happen. But this is why I'd like to also be able to get her to accept scratches/verbal rewards as well, so if something happens at any other time I can let her know she's done well.
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Jenna
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by Jenna on Apr 6, 2009 14:40:10 GMT 1
There are so many different 'methods' you can tie yourself up in knots! As long as you understand about the basic click/treat principle, and can get your horse to understand it too, you can modify and adapt to suit yourself and your horse.
With Indi, he needed LOTS of reassurance so got lots of clicks and treats to begin with, for even the slightest try. Over time, once he'd got the hang of it, he was happy to go for quite a space between clicks, and even longer between treats.
Kira, on the other hand, picked the concept up very quickly, and she was very enthusiastic. I actually moved along in her training quite quickly because she'd try and finish her 'task' really quickly so she got the treat, and she's such a smart cookie she picked things up very fast.
I talk in the past tense as I used it with Indi to increase his self-confidence, and with Kira when she was a baby, and I haven't done any for a while. Reading this thread though, I might start it up again!
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Post by stybba on Apr 6, 2009 14:41:09 GMT 1
I've got a climbers chalk bag that I will also use if I know we are going to have a designated 'clicker sesh'. Emma, I need to tell you that it is also your fault that I splashed out on a (second hand) copy of the Lucy Rees book yesterday!
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Post by ruthp on Apr 6, 2009 14:41:47 GMT 1
I think the reason I prefer the click as an intermediate bridge with the horses is that is helps with a sort of "Yes, that's right, keep going" signal. When I was using it as a terminal bridge, it was easy to get an immediate end to the behaviour - for example, foot going down and head coming round for the treat. Bali is a very impatient horse, and also very greedy, so the click as a terminal bridge wasn't great for her - she immediately looked for the treat. Now, using it as an intermediate she has learnt that she has to carry on doing what she's doing UNTIL she gets the treat. Just works for us, I guess. It sounds as though you (Stybba) are using a voice "Good boy / girl" in the same way - as you say, you have to find what works for you. And yes, at the end of every series of clicks, there is always a treat, so we are really on the same page there!
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Jenna
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by Jenna on Apr 6, 2009 14:46:20 GMT 1
In a slight sidestep, has anyone used Bridge and Target training? I used it with Isa when she was a pup with great results. There's much more of a distinct difference between the intermediate and terminal bridges, so the animal knows when it's doing well but still needs to carry on (the intermediate) and when the action is finished (the terminal).
I'd like to try it with the horses, but having used clicker training with them I'm not sure if I'll confuse them by experimenting with B&T.
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Post by emmaandstar on Apr 6, 2009 15:01:45 GMT 1
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Post by emmaandstar on Apr 6, 2009 15:06:31 GMT 1
Forgot to say I am just starting experimenting using clicker with work at liberty as well. I can get her to walk, halt and back with no lines just verbal and visual cues.
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Post by stybba on Apr 6, 2009 15:49:21 GMT 1
LOL! Emma Lethbridge's book is on my wish list. She is one of Heather's EE instructors. ;D I can get Tommy to do that on verbal and visual cues too, I'm just not brave enough to take him into the school to do 'proper' liberty work yet! ;D
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