The Clicker Thread

[clarea]

Hi Stybba,

I'm hoping you'll (or anyone else!) be able to give me some advice re clicker training!!
I want to start doing this with my lad as he is highly intelligent and I think it will give him something else to think about. I have got a clicker training book (by Alexandra Kurland) but I'm not sure I understand it properly (being a bit stoopid at times!! )

I understand about giving him a target and clicking and reinforcing but when do you stop giving the reinforcement (food) or don't you? I'm thinking about starting by getting him to touch a ball and then moving the ball around but don't want to get it wrong!!!

Any advice gratefully received!! ;D

[stybba]

Hi,

Basically every click means a treat. It is like a contract you are entering into with the horse. When you click, he gets a treat.

What you can do is introduce what is known as a 'variable schedule of reinforcement'. This means that he has to produce the behaviour for a more prolonged period of time before you click and treat.

So say for example you were training him to lift a foot. to start off with you will click and treat at every attempt no matter how small. gradually you will only click and treat when the foot is lifted up. Then you will only click and treat when he has held his foot up for two seconds. Then only when he has held it up for three seconds etc.

That way you abe building up a more consistent behaviour/set of behaviours.

However, every time you click, you treat. Other people may disagree with me on this, but as far as I am concerned the click means 'Yes, that was what I wanted, now you get your reward.'

Similarly, you ignore the behaviour you don't want. So mugging you for treats is not rewarded. They soon learn that it doesn't work. Also make sure that when you give the treat you hold your the treat away from your body, so they aren't encouraged to look for it in your pockets.

If you go on to Heather's website, there is a whole part of the forum devoted to clicker training which is very valuable.

www.enlightenedequitation.com


I hope that helps.

[stybba]

Ooooh, just to say, I am no real authority on clicker training. I am not a 'trainer' or anything like that. I can only tell you about the experiences I have had with my horses. I am very much a novice with the clicker, and am totally learning myself.

However, if by sharing my experiences i can help, then so much the better. ;D

[clarea]

Thank you! That makes sense to always give the food reward when you click. I'll have to start getting a basic plan together so I can see how it goes. I'll take a look at Heather's site too. Thanks again

[Jenna]

The great thing about clicker training, though, is the horse doesn't expect the treat immediately. When they're really good at it, they know that the click means they've done the right thing, and that a treat is forthcoming, but it doesn't have to follow within a few seconds.

I taught one of mine to touch a target across the other side of the school, he'd get a click, but he wouldn't rush straight back for his treat - he'd wait to see if there was something else I wanted him to do before he came back, and once I'd called him back to me he'd then get his treats. In this way you can teach them to touch a whole series of targets, or perform a series of actions, before giving the treats - as long as the treats follow at some point after the clicks, they seem happy.

(Hope that makes sense and apologies for butting in!)

[clarea]

Thanks Jenna - any advice welcome as I am a complete novice at it!

[ruthp]

Hi Clarea, there are two excellent books which I would recommend too - one is by Ben Hart and is called "The Art and Science of Clicker Training for Horses", and the other is "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Prior. Neither of these is a How To book - more theory and explanation. The Ben Hart one is very specifically about clicker training horses, and I found it really useful as an explanation of the motivation behind it. Don't Shoot the Dog is more generic about the psychology of training - it's a brilliant read, and the theory works with husbands too!!!

And I do slightly disagree with Stybba about treating every time you click - you certainly do that to start with, but most of the experts suggest that eventually you get a bit more random about the treating, you click to say "Yes, that's right", but you don't always treat - the theory is sort of like a human playing a Casino machine - you go on putting your coin in, trying to get the reward, even though you don't always get a payout., but you keep trying. Both Karen Prior and Ben Hart explain it really well! As Jenna says, that way you can train a series of actions, each getting a separate click, but then only one treat at the end.

[clarea]

Thank you Ruth, I'll take a look at those books. I really only want to do it to give him something else to think about. He is very clever so I need to keep him occupied but for the time being I would just like to try teaching him a few games.

[stybba]

Apr 6, 2009 9:24:40 GMT 1 ruthp said:

eventually you get a bit more random about the treating, you click to say "Yes, that's right", but you don't always treat -.

Yes ruth, I think there are two schools of thought about this. Personally I would rather build up the duration of demanding a behaviour/behaviours, then click and treat. One of my instructors does as you describe, and I have had to ask her not to when working with my pony, as she just becomes confused.

I don't expect my horses to find the clicker itself motivating. They are motivated by the reward, the clicker for me is just a bridge, and enables me to pinpoint the exact action for which I am rewarding them. Thus the clicker is the marker so they can understand what they have done right, and they are about to be rewarded for it.

I just feel that if I clicked often, but treated randomly, the significance of the clicker would be lost.

I think the thing is, as with all training methods, you adapt it to suit you and your horse once you have found out what workd for you. Consistency is the key.

[emmaandstar]

I would never click and not treat, but I do introduce clickless treats as early on as possible once behaviour is established, these then become intermittant as this reinforces behaviour further, before treats are completely faded out.

[stybba]

Apr 6, 2009 10:59:28 GMT 1 @emmaandstar said:

I do introduce clickless treats as early on as possible once behaviour is established, these then become intermittant as this reinforces behaviour further, before treats are completely faded out.

Oooh, that's interesting, what's the reasoning behind this Emma?

[stybba]

Just another thought.

I think different trainers use the clicker in slightly different ways. From what I understand Alex Kurland will use the clicker as a terminal bridge, whereas Ben Hart (I haven't read the book myself, this is just what I have gleaned from others) uses it as more of a 'keep going, you are on the right track' signal. Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

I use 'keep going you're on the right track' signals in the form of 'goodboy/girl', but always use the click as the terminal bridge, signalling the end of the task and a reward.

[dagbecian]

I've been thinking about clicker trainer with one of ours. It was suggested by one of the RA's last year when I spoke to her on the phone about him. He had got in the habit of tanking off on us when being led. The last couple of times he tried my OH managed to stop him. So since October when we bring him in or put him out he gets a treat and touch wood so far its worked.
I was going to put a thread on to get more info on it so brill keep it coming.

[ruthp]

Stybba, you're quite right, Ben Hart does use the clicker as an intermediate bridge with horses, and since I've read his book I've started doing it like that too, and I've found it really useful. I still use the clicker as a terminal bridge with dogs, as they have a different learning style.

I've certainly found it very useful to read up a lot on the subject, as with clicker training I found I really need to understand how and why it works to be most effective. It's easy enough to teach touching a target without fully understanding it, but I couldn't do much else until I got into the psychology of it. Now I'm totally hooked! Dogs, cats, horses, husbands..... (although you have to be quite subtle with husbands - for some reason they don't respond that well to a click!) ;-)

[stybba]

Ruth, this is so interesting. I'd love to know why you prefer using the clicker as an intermediate bridge. (just off to add Ben Hart's book to my wish list)