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Post by iwillbuy on Oct 11, 2007 9:06:24 GMT 1
i wonder if you are right karon, i must admit i always had natives who didn,t have rugs and to be quite honest i think i even had a barefoot paradise for a yard (and didn,t even know it ) it was a small yard and they were constantly turned out on a gravel surface with a paddock at one end and access to adlib hay they never had hard feed
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Post by Yann on Oct 11, 2007 9:09:08 GMT 1
He wasn't the farrier's apprentice, he was someone in the middle of his extensive education and you'd have expected everything to be bang on with his own pony.
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Post by Roz on Oct 11, 2007 9:15:32 GMT 1
I haven't read the whole thread, but noticed that people where asking the difference between a farrier trim and a EP trim. As I understand it a farrier will do a pasture trim and an EP (of the KC LaPierre school) will do an HPT trim (High Performance trim).
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Post by scorpio on Oct 11, 2007 9:35:21 GMT 1
I haven't read the whole thread, but noticed that people where asking the difference between a farrier trim and a EP trim. As I understand it a farrier will do a pasture trim and an EP (of the KC LaPierre school) will do an HPT trim (High Performance trim). Now this is where my farrier (and I) have an issue - he says a good trim is a good trim providing a foot that is fit for purpose. So why the need for variants? This is where I think people may be being conned into thinking that they are getting something that they're not
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Post by indibindi on Oct 11, 2007 9:35:30 GMT 1
That depends on the farrier roz Not all farriers are unable to give a trim that is capable of seeing the horse through lots of varied work. I actually think the strength of the hoof, the health of the horse and the time without shoes in order to adjust is as if, if not more, important than the trim. My farrier does a barefoot trim - it doesn't need to have a fancy name to do the job
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Post by fin on Oct 11, 2007 10:35:40 GMT 1
I haven't read the whole thread, but noticed that people where asking the difference between a farrier trim and a EP trim. As I understand it a farrier will do a pasture trim and an EP (of the KC LaPierre school) will do an HPT trim (High Performance trim). Now this is where my farrier (and I) have an issue - he says a good trim is a good trim providing a foot that is fit for purpose. So why the need for variants? This is where I think people may be being conned into thinking that they are getting something that they're not If anyone could con me I'd be surprised. Or do you think we're all brainwashed thickos? ;D I think 'fit for purpose' is the whole point. If you have an eventer you need a performance trim, if you have a retired old pony a pasture trim will do. You need a hoofcare professional who knows the difference and can apply a trim not only fit for purpose, but which takes into account the individual horse too. We're not strictly applying a HPT trim to my horse--it probably looks a lot more like what someone like Pete Ramey (farrier and trimmer) would do, with a very substantial roll, but leaving a lot more hoof wall. I'm not sure that's much like a pasture trim either, which tends to be more maintanence (removing excess growth) than actually being remedial.
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Post by samamber on Oct 11, 2007 10:39:17 GMT 1
The other thing that not many non-barefooters know is that many ofthe people who started the 'barefoot movement', like KC La Pierre, were originally farriers before looking into alternatives.
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Post by Roz on Oct 11, 2007 10:43:25 GMT 1
Finn have you got a Mustang trim on your QH?
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Post by fin on Oct 11, 2007 10:44:42 GMT 1
Yup, Pete Ramey and Jaime Jackson are as well. Ramey still calls himself a farrier, since he quite rightly sees boots as being 'modern horse shoes.' THere are a couple of UK farriers who've qualified as trimmers too
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Post by fin on Oct 11, 2007 10:49:59 GMT 1
Finn have you got a Mustang trim on your QH? We've got a sort of hybrid thing going on, to compensate for all the damage the IR is doing. He tends to have flattish feet, his toes usually pull forward, and his heels are still more contracted than I'd like, plus he was slipping back into toe first landings again. So we're trimming him every week now and putting a substantial roll on the toes, but we're leaving him more hoof wall than a wild horse trim, because he still has some inflammation in his soles I think and if we drop him right onto his soles he's none too happy. It's working--he's landing heel first now, simply because his toes are shorter. I'm hoping at the weekend we can back them up a bit more and we'll see how that goes. We're starting get miles more concavity in the fronts tho, and so long as we don't screw up on diet (v easy to do with JJ) he's actually mostly sound and striding out ;D
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Post by mandal on Oct 11, 2007 11:00:20 GMT 1
The mustang roll is one difference between a pasture and 'barefoot' trim........also I think heel height and toe length.
Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey especially are continally learning as Pete always says himself and he is continually modifying his practice which he passes on willingly to anyone who wants to learn from his experience.
They were both Farriers for many years as Finn says so imo are in a position to compare the differences and benefits for many horses. I urge anyone remotely interested in horses feet to read Jaimes book 'The Natural Horse' and Petes book 'Making Natural Hoofcare Work for you'....................As Pete says and I often quote 'Somehow I knew I was reading the truth' when referring to Jaimes book HOG which is an in depth trimming book.
I also agree that many of us have gone to 'barefoot' following bad experiences/service from Farriers.
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Post by scorpio on Oct 11, 2007 11:08:09 GMT 1
"If anyone could con me I'd be surprised. Or do you think we're all brainwashed thickos?"
No not at all, but not everybody has (or wants to have) the level of knowledge that some people on this board have and can be (no pun intended) taken for a ride.
Why should an eventer have a "high performance" trim- what EXACTLY is a HPT? Why would the shape of the foot need to be any different to a horse that hacks? Does it need to be more sound?!
Every horse needs a foot that is healthy and balanced surely that's the only principle that should be applied?
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Post by justinej on Oct 11, 2007 11:09:38 GMT 1
I have to ask this question. Why do farriers undervalue the trim so much? A set of shoes costs about £8 or so. If a farrier is charging £50 for a set, say, take £15 off for costs etc, that leaves £35 for the trimming part. So why then charge only £15 for a "pasture trim"? Of the process of shoeing, the trim is the most important. I know the barefoot world is moving away from the importance of the trim and towards the importance of knowledge in nutrition and how to deal with environment etc, but a good balanced trim is the foundation of it all.
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Azrael
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by Azrael on Oct 11, 2007 11:14:59 GMT 1
Finn already described some of the 'special' farriers in north wales.. I can think of a few more.. We have the guy who said 'I'll just trim them a bit there's no point balancing youngsters feet', the one who said he was certain a pony hadn't had laminitis recently.. huge cresty neck, history of being turned out on cow grass, dropped soles, footy, change in angle of growth at the top.. then there's the one that never ever shows up and on the rare occasion he does eventually appear a few hours late plays with his hoof gauges and gets the hoof-pastern angle right even if that's by having a stupidly long toe left long and the heels left high to make it look right. Then there's the pathetic excuse for a human that uses his hammer to 'discipline' a horse. When my old farrier got injured he seriously recommended I use a person that wasn't qualified or registered at the time because he was less useless than most of the other local farriers At the time I decided I'd rather buy a rasp and Pete Ramey's book but fortunatly never got around to using them since an EP qualified nearby and I was happy to part with £40
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Azrael
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,733
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Post by Azrael on Oct 11, 2007 11:24:40 GMT 1
True. But what is a balanced trim? There are different versions of how to balance, T square (perpendicular to cannon bone) and live sole plane being two main ones.. the two can give very different results especially on horses with less than perfect conformation. There's quite a bit of variation within healthy and balanced and how you get there varies.
'High performance trim' is just the name for KC LaPierre's trim, my field ornaments get my attempts at it despite the only thing they're high performance at being eating ;D
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