EPs more expensive than farriers,why???

[mandal]

Oh and trimmers trim for the horse to perform without shoes. www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/ I know many horses can with a pasture trim but those who cant..... well I wonder if they expose possible dietry/mangement issues??? One thing is certain barefoot horses will tell you immediately if there is a problem...........we also mustn't forget that horses are programmed not to show weakness (pain) as a survival strategy so when they are limping they must be very sore.

[mandal]

lottiedude said:

My farrier is going on a barefoot trimming course soon. His aim is to charge his usual rate of £20 for a 'field' trim, and £45 for a barefoot trim (which will be exactly the same thing!). He says that if people are fool enough to pay so much for a less qualified job, then he is happy to take their cash.

Well all I can say is he is in for a big shock then!.............I hope he can hack it!! ;D No pun intended btw.

arabheaven said:

excpet you have to trim more often than you shoes so...

Not true.............it depends frequent trimming is needed sometimes for correction but maintainance trims can be 12 weeks apart and if you look at your keeping practicises and can modify them no trimming at all!!!!! Have a look at the link I put up earlier.

I'm off now cos I've bored everyone and am talking to myself again! LOL

[sarahfox]

Poor mandal!!
i wasnt ignoring you I just cant type and eat!
Thanks,thats how I see most things in life,best explore all options and avenues,use your brain and take the best bits of all!
I think the reason why many farriers are so scathing of barefoot is they are feeling attacked and are on the defensive,imagine being a good farrier,charging £15 to £20 for a trim,looking at the whole horse treating it well and doing a realy conscientous job,then finding yourself usurped by someone with less training( maybe an EP does know more about certain things,but they still qualify in less time) who is charging more than twice the price.Cant blame them realy.
I do hope that at the end of the day everybody can benefit from the barefoot movement as it does seem to have something to offer and maybe if people have other options then perhaps all the awful farriers will either give up or buck up!

[Teeni]

I think its up to the individual.

There are a few farriers in my area who would consider doing a trim as a waste of their time. A few i wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Some others that i would consider, but can't wait around to get on the books and they wouldn't come out probably unless they were there to do a shod horse.

I am very happy with the service i get from the EP i use and also have had some fantastic comments from one of the top vets in the area too about my horses feet.

I don't think it should be a 'us' vs 'them' situation at all.

Again i think its personal preference.


ETA: If people have farriers doing trims on there horses and they can do all the work required happily and healthy, hang onto them and don't let them go!!!

[Susan]

I think as well, does it matter.. if I am happy to pay out.. what ever and another is happy to pay out what ever ..are we causing either any distress.. No.. so.. let it be..

Plus what ever we all feel about costings the growth of horses going unshod or remaining upshod..will make more farriers either take it on board or lose revenue..it isn't a fad and it wont go away and to have a choice has to be for the best..

Perhaps it might even make more farrier improve and we gain better skilled professionals out there as we should be entitiled to have.

[joto]

can anyone explain the difference between a pasture trim and a barefoot trim?

[jennywren]

I'm so glad to have a brilliant farrier who:-

Trots horse up before and after trimming/shoeing.
Discusses whether horse actually need shoes.
Discusses what type of work and what surfaces horses are working on.
How have they been.
Diet
Is always on time
Checks the foot for balance
Comes every 6 weeks or whenever needed
Charges reasonably
Is always on courses, uk and USA so always up to date with the latest research.

Who needs an EP?

[Fussymare]

I used an EP for about a year, when my horse developed a mysterious stifle problem. He was retired, but I went down the barefoot route in the hope that better foot balance would help his lameness. It turned out that he has snapped a ligament in the stifle joint, therefore not affected at all by his foot balance.

I have to say his feet have improved dramatically. He now has less contracted heels, and better heel height. I stopped my EP trims in August, as I got a second horse, and couldn't justify spending £50 on a trim for my retired boy (my new mare is shod at the front).

I think it is a shame that people get so evangelical about barefoot v farrier. I have been made to feel very bad about changing back to my farrier.

Hopefully now my boy's feet are in better shape, my farrier can keep them that way. I have been very honest with him about using an EP, and he will see the feet tomorrow for the first time in a year. I am hoping he will be honest and say that he can see a big improvement - I think he will as he is pretty genuine.

If I had gone down the barefoot route with both my horses it would have cost me about £100 a time. With front shoes and a farrier trim it will be £50. I only work part time, so at the end of the day it came down to money. I don't begrudge my horses anything - but at the end of the day I have to be able to afford them. If money was no object, I would have continued with the EP for both of them.

[mandal]

I daren't try joto........I've been looking for a comparison for you but can't find an unbiased one.

[butterfly]

I have a guy that does my 3 horses but I dont think he is an EP. He charges me £15 per horse. When we discuss diet or anything else for that matter he changes the subject!!

I am on the lookout for a good farrier in my area. Anyone know one???

(Huddersfield)

[fin]

jennywren said:

Who needs an EP?

Those of us who have local farriers we wouldn't touch with a bargepole, for a start I have a choice of a chap who does the worst trims and the worst shoeing I have EVER seen, a technically very good farrier who is totally antibarefoot, rascist, and thinks effective horse handling is a good belt with the rasp, another who turned up to my friend's yard psst with one of his mates and loudly discussed the stable girl's body (in Welsh) thinking she wouldn't understand, another who I'm told is very good and kind to the horses (so long as you don't mind long toes, flare, two year olds shod for sore feet and tying a horse's head to its tail to keep it still), and another guy who is supposed to be OK as a farrier, but who I actually later found out has done time for attempted murder. I know it sounds like something out of Monty Python but it's all true

Like I've said before, I'm not anti-farrier on principle but I'd find it kind of hard to hand over even £15 to any of that lot If it helps I wouldn't give them £40 if they were EPs either.

We do need to distinguish between EPs and other sorts of trimmers, I think. Mine's an EP (and is sober, non-rascist, has extremely good horse handling skills, and has never murdered anybody) but he's also a highly qualified scientist. He is currently researching laminitis and metabolic illnesses, and I can honestly say that if it hadn't been for him I very much doubt that my horse would be alive. For the last couple of years he's gone out of his way to find solutions to the sorts of problems that are plaguing JJ and other insulin resistant horses. We're not just talking about a bit of advice on diet here, either He's argued our case with the vet, come out on New Year's Eve to help deal with an abcess, rescued us when we were almost total novices with an astonishingly difficult horse, spent two years dealing with said difficult horse without complaint (even though JJ thinks anyone with a rasp is a fair target), and is now teaching us to trim as well.

So, given that every time he's here it's usually for two or three hours to trim two horses and have a good brainstorming session on IR management and whatever developments we've come up with, I'd say that £40 was pretty cheap really.

[iwillbuy]

and also just because you are paying more it doesn,t always mean you are getting a better job,
i think this is what my farrier gets peed off with the charges when he does exactley the same thing he does say though if i want to pay more money he is always happy to take it,
and another question back in the olden days ( ) i would never dream of shoeing a horse not in work, and would never dream of shoeing a pony (as they never did enough work) these were "barefoot" and got on quite happily

[Yann]

and also just because you are paying more it doesn,t always mean you are getting a better job,

There's a good chance you might be though. There's a pony I know, used to be owned by an apprentice farrier, never been shod and feet like concrete, now trimmed by another farrier.

Current theory on this thread suggests he should have the best feet going and they should be indistinguishable from anything trimmed by a barefooter locally. Not so unfortunately, the heels are too long, the frogs are small and weedy and the back of the foot has contracted. Any trimmer (and even I) would spot that instantly, but for some reason even someone going through the extensive and comprehensive education they are supposed to receive clearly didn't, and nor has someone else equally qualified.
There does seem to be a problem with what constitutes a truly healthy functional foot with many farriers.

[iwillbuy]

my farrier has never had an apprenctice so thats maybe where the fault lies i have never had an apprentice trim it has always been done by my farrier

[Karon]

Perhaps those of us who are "evangelical" barefooters are the ones who have had horses with metabolic problems and a farrier who won't/can't offer advice (or even support, that'd be nice) on how to cope?! I know that, in general, my experience of farriers hasn't been that good (although I don't think any of the ones locally have been done for attempted murder... ) and I also know that Mel has gone out of her way many times to help out with Khafif's problems. She is happy to deal with vets, other trimmers, farriers - to get the best for the horse. And she'll come out as soon as I call if I've got a problem - that's 90 miles away from us BTW - where when Ash was going lame with shoes on I was lucky if I could convince the farrier to come out within a week or two.

I know there are farriers who keep up to date with modern ideas, keep studying, going on courses, and can keep a horse sound barefoot. But I also know that I can't find one of them and to me, my trimmer is worth her weight in gold.

Iwillbuy - I used to ride my first horse without shoes all winter, with no problems, and she'd always have her shoes removed for 2 - 3 months every winter. I wonder what's changed since then, probably management as back then, most horses were out 24/7 and unrugged - you were posh if you had rugs and a stable!

ETA: IWB - you're lucky never having had an apprentice out to your horses, the last one I had is never coming near my horses again