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Post by nikki on Oct 11, 2007 11:28:46 GMT 1
I'm quite happy paying for an EP trim for my guys. Thing is that they were having problem after problem with my previous farrier and the shape of their feet was..well...odd! When they went down with Laminitis my vet painstakingly explained how the trim could be contributing and how they should be trimmed in future but the farrier wouldn't take it on board and carried on trimming how he always had. The thing is that if I hadn't changed to an EP I would still be paying huge vets bills week in and week out so the way I see it, I'm actually saving money! Also, I count our EP as a friend now. I know I could phone or email her any time with any question I had and she wouldn't mind at all. And she doesn't make me feel thick when I ask stupid questions!
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Post by mandal on Oct 11, 2007 11:48:42 GMT 1
[,l True. But what is a balanced trim? There are different versions of how to balance, IMO this is so true and one of the reasons Pete Ramey makes so much sense to me personally.................listen to the horse....if it keeps growing back what you trim off then he needs it!!! is one example.
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Post by beany1 on Oct 11, 2007 12:29:18 GMT 1
What even flare??
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Post by rj on Oct 11, 2007 12:37:03 GMT 1
Scorpio said '...... not everybody has (or wants to have) the level of knowledge that some people on this board have'
And there we have it!!
Barefoot trimmers of all types will say that the owner has to take responsibility for their horses feet, whereas it has always been in the past ' I'll leave it to the professional'.
It is up to every owner to learn as much as they can about all aspects of their horses health & well being, and then - only then - can they make informed decisions.
Now, if people reading the threads about barefoot on here go 'ooh there's a bandwagon I'd love to jump on' rush out & demand someone (anyone) takes the shoes off their horse and that's it - it's a recipe for disaster - and not our fault! You can't do anything about stupidity.
A good trimmer will help the owners education, but will also expect them to find out information for themselves.
If an owner isn't interested in doing that, whih Scorpio implies is the case, I advise that you all stick with your lovely farriers! But actually that is no excuse for not doing the research, reading the books, looking at the websites that are out there to help. And if you haven't, don't try telling us that we don't know what we're doing; that will only get the response it deserves!!!
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Post by Yann on Oct 11, 2007 12:42:26 GMT 1
How often do you read (not necessarily on here) someone posting 'well I tried barefoot, the farrier took my horses' shoes off but she couldn't cope with the stones, so we had her reshod, she can't manage'? There's so much more to it.
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Post by fin on Oct 11, 2007 13:05:33 GMT 1
Most of the people I know who keep unshod horses are pretty clued up and as a general rule tend to be highly qualified professionals in their own right too, so they're usually in a good position to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. Being able and willing to do the work--over and beyond what your trimmer advises--is part of parcel of keeping a barefoot horse. Generally most people DO know what they're talking about, at least with regards the care and maintainence of their own horse's feet. YOu'd be very very lucky to be clueless and still get away with a sound and healthy horse Trim wise, yes, a healthy and balanced hoof is the aim. But for a pasture ornament, you only need a hoof that can cope with pottering about on a soft surface, so really, even the toes get a bit long, or there's a bit of flare, or the heel height's not so good, or the frogs are a bit feeble, you can get away with it. I don't feel that the standard 'pasture' trim needs to really address issues or mild imbalances, so long as the pony can potter about from yard to field and have a bit of a hoon, it's fine. Basically, you can get away with more. If you need a horse to perform on mixed surfaces, at speed, without slipping--you need a concave (for grip), functioning, sound foot that's got a thick enough sole to cope with rough surfaces and landings, ideal balance (so you're not stressing joints and tendons etc), and so on. Basically, if I took your shoes off and asked you to run round on your lawn you'd be fine, even if your own personal foot health was a bit dodgy and your foot balance not so good (serious flat feet), and if you had no callouses whatsoever (no sole depth, basically). But if I asked you to come running with me in the mountains, over slate tracks, jumping walls, coping with marsh and mud slides and scree and stuff like that, you'd need much tougher feet. Plus, if you really did over-pronate (run with a collapsed arch hitting the floor, a sort of foot imbalance) you'd soon start to hurt over any distance, and it would affect your knees, hips, shoulders..... That's why you need a much more detailed, attentive trim on a performance horse--there's more to go wrong and particular problems have to be addressed. Of course, there's no reason why a pasture ornament can't have a trim that good, and no reason why a clued up farrier or owner can't do it either.
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dingbat
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Post by dingbat on Oct 11, 2007 13:14:23 GMT 1
mine is £40. she travels much further than my farrier did though to get to me and has clients pretty spcaed out (unlike farrier). my farrier also spent about 2 minutes per foot trimming it. he could do all four feet in what seemed like zero time. for about £15. £15 for 10 minutes work is pretty expensive if you ask me! Where as my trimmer is there an hour and sometimes longer.
She is also supportive and has been to check in on him or to look at him when i've called her stressed out and not even charged me for the priviledge. i can phone her any time for advice and she's also leant me hoof boots before, until i got my own.
it seems a lot and i am skint! but its well worth it IMO.
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Post by scorpio on Oct 11, 2007 13:16:33 GMT 1
Not sure if your comments were made at me rj - but I'll clarify my view. Over the last 10 years or so there has been a massive shift from getting horses shod as the norm to people giving it a bit more thought and taking the barefoot option. Because of this, there has been a respective rise in the number or EPs. There can be a certain amount of snobbery with people who use EPs and consider themselves more "enlightened" than those of us who use a farrier who are obviously "behind the times"! This is demonstrated clearly by someone here who said that a farrier wouldn't be as knowledgeable about the structures of the foot than an EP!! Now THAT comment doesn't dignify a response. I'm not saying that EP = bad and Farrier = good but what I am saying is that an EP does less training than a farrier yet people seem to consider their service somehow more specialised and therefore warrant a premium price. As I said earlier I feel that the "different" trims offered by EPs are unnecessary as a good trim is a good trim, end of. As I said in a previous post, the EP being used by my neighbour certainly was misguided at best and dishonest at worst. She told them that her horses had all sorts of problems (WLD and LGL) which was clearly not the case! Someone on here also said that 12 weeks was "far too long" to leave between trims - please tell my horses that as they're fine thanks. Two will even go 24 weeks in the summer as my farrier won't trim if not needed. Who told you that 12 weeks was too long? Bet you a fiver it was an EP! In summary, barefoot hoofcare (or indeed hoofcare full stop) can be so complex that so many owners just cannot get their head around it all and therefore wish to place their trust in a professional - that it what they are there for after all! I just think that good farriers are every inch as professional as good EPs and should be given the same credit.
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Azrael
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Post by Azrael on Oct 11, 2007 13:18:22 GMT 1
Normally flare needs to go and if its coming back repeatedly its a sign that the diet isn't right. The 'if it comes back its probably needed' thing refers more to things like false sole that we might not like the look of because its not what a 'good' foot should look like but it is actually helping at that time and will go away on its own when no longer needed so shouldn't be got rid of during a trim.
But you can sometimes get something that looks a bit like flare but is actually the foot adapting to something. Think there's a good article on Cindy Sullivan's website somewhere on that (can't remember the link sorry!). For an example one of Roxy's back feet flared slightly to the inside recently which turned out to be compensating for a stiffness in that leg. That flare was trimmed and an osteopath called to sort out the muscular problem that was causing it. But if that had been a long term problem that couldn't have been sorted out with an osteopath visit it could be possible that the 'flare' was actually the foot compensating and helping with the leg problem and maybe some of it should then have been left.
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Post by scorpio on Oct 11, 2007 13:22:02 GMT 1
Sorry Finn, we must have been typing at the same time!! Your post makes perfect sense but as you say in your last paragraph, my pasture ornaments are "as worthy" of a perfect trim as any other horse and I would accept nothing less. Neither would my farrier which is why he believes "a trim is a trim is a trim"
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Post by fin on Oct 11, 2007 13:22:21 GMT 1
EPs or trimmers? Clarify, please.
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Post by fin on Oct 11, 2007 13:27:12 GMT 1
Argh, crossed posts.
Exactly. The difference is tho, a good hoofcare professional (be it farrier, trimmer, or owner), can do a good trim. I'm afraid the term 'pasture' trim has now unfairly) pretty much become synonymous with crrap trim, really, since there are an awful lots of neds out there with very suspect feet that the farrier or owner looks at every so often, shortens a bit, and that's it. It doesn't HAVE to be like that, obviously, but it sometimes is. At least a specialist trimmer definately won't do that, because they're not trained to. But no everybody lives near one, and besides, if your farrier can do it properly, or you can do it, you don't need a specialist trimmer.
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Azrael
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Post by Azrael on Oct 11, 2007 13:46:20 GMT 1
The trims EPs offer are just good trims. IMO its something everyone should be able to get as part of the service from their farrier, you're obviously one of the lucky ones that can. Most of the farrier trims I've seen in this area I wouldn't pay 10p for they're so useless.. so in that situation there's a perfect opportunity for non-farriers who can trim to make some money Some of the farriers in my area are so flippin useless that I've had several people asking me to trim their horses and take money off them even though they're aware that I have no trimming qualifications. Yay! I get a fiver Its based on my own experience of how often I look at my own horses and the horses on the yard that I trim and think 'that needs a pedicure'. Since I only get money for three of those 8 and what I get for those 3 is just to cover the cost I can be pretty certain I'm not thinking they need a trim because I want £40 ;D Some of them were left too long between less than brilliant trims just before I started doing them so there's still stuff like flare that needs taken off as it grows down so its better to do them more often to start with. About every 6-8 weeks seems right for most of them. Though I might fuss with mine more often just because I can and its free ;D I did also say that its too long for "most horses" but not all and some can manage to go 12 weeks or more easily if they have good feet and move around plenty to get enough wear. There's good and bad in all professions. Being an EP (or a farrier) isn't automatically going to make anyone perfect.. as I think that £60 every 2 weeks example shows quite nicely
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Post by mandal on Oct 11, 2007 14:08:06 GMT 1
I shouldn't have taken this out of context!! But beany1 flare should grow out as the new hoof shape grows down. I was meaning hoof wall heel and bars. This is of course not to be confused with excessive growth due to lack of wear. I've probably ended up confusing everyone and should keep quiet when I can't explain it clearly enough, sorry. Mta. Trimming (barefoot...KC,Natural or whatever) is an holistic approach and challenges the owner to provide an environment and diet to allow the horse with appropriate trimming to function in our domestic environment. Imo each horse and owner is an individual and one can choose to go as far down the spectrum, to wild if you like, as you wish. I feel that once owners who are committed start on this journey and see benefits they often want to go down the road as far as they can. I say committed because it isn't just about a trim and it's not a quick fix so often months can go by before the owner sees benefits in performance. Another way to aid the horse to live in our domestic environment is the use of shoes................I don't know really which is 'best' or even if there is a 'best' way but I have tried to learn as much as I can and made what I consisder informed choices that sit well with me and my horses.
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Post by Yann on Oct 11, 2007 14:55:00 GMT 1
Do they do lots of work and self trim or live in an environment where they get lots of natural wear whilst turned out? Because sometimes a farrier's version of 'it doesn't need a trim' is slightly different to how others would see it in terms of keeping a healthy balanced foot, particularly if the wall has grown out well past the sole. My horse's feet grow like hell in the summer, the mind boggles as to what they'd look like if they went untouched for 3 months.
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