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Post by gem on Oct 11, 2007 11:12:24 GMT 1
Cokey - I do feel a bit flummoxed by your last post, I dont think heather has criticised you and said you dont want to learn, just that it isnt how she sees things which is fine.
Id post some pics but I know that Sky isnt in self carriage as yet so whats the point?
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Post by jennyb on Oct 11, 2007 11:23:40 GMT 1
Because she's pretty Gem and we like to look at her!
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Post by heather on Oct 11, 2007 11:27:20 GMT 1
Hey dont forget, you were brave enough to post a video, Gem!!
Heather
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Post by bhpride on Oct 11, 2007 11:56:42 GMT 1
wow big thread, must get up to my mums lol so i can see the photos and read everything, in work now.
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chloe
Grand Prix Poster
Kai's Mum
Posts: 2,609
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Post by chloe on Oct 11, 2007 12:12:46 GMT 1
I'm not intimidated, nor scared of contructive criticism, so please, everyone, fire away! ;D How can I help Dolly to work in self carriage? At the moment we're doing lots of hacking out to build her fitness back up after a few weeks holiday, but when we're in the school, we focus on transitions, turns, basic lateral movements (spiralling in and out on circles is her favourite as she's so good at leg yielding) and concentrating hard on not holding her up but at the same time not letting her charge off (her favourite evasions are slamming the brakes on, zooming off in a high speed trot or bucking). These photos are from the Kathleen Lindley clinic we took part in earlier this year (sadly no more recent ones)
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Post by Susan on Oct 11, 2007 12:37:15 GMT 1
A very good excuse, Susan! There is not a lot of you, and an awful lot of him !! I just find the concept of 'bearing down' so difficult to achieve. I am very aware of lifting my seatbones, not 'plugging them in', (deliberately) which I thought was also part of the bear down concept? Heather Heather Would you take up a challengue.. and come up and have an insight to Beardown ( for real) and plug in.. I know one of two folks I know who would do it and I bet you would see what we RWYM shout about I know you would really enjoy the priviledge and it isnt that far from Keysoe..
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Post by Susan on Oct 11, 2007 12:57:52 GMT 1
chloe
didnt your horse just before these pics have mega bucking fits when asked to canter? if so.well these pics were taken showing one issue mended.. you couldnt build Rome in a day..
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chloe
Grand Prix Poster
Kai's Mum
Posts: 2,609
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Post by chloe on Oct 11, 2007 13:02:30 GMT 1
She did indeed - in fact the second photo was taken minutes after the first tantrum on the first day of the clinic. The other two are from day 2 when the bucks had disappeared. I know she's improved an enormous amount since then but I'm always after ways to improve us even more My Bowen lady has given us a few lessons and always remarks that Dolly "fixes" the lower half of her neck so while the rest of her is flexible and working, this base doesn't want to move and is the area she always has to spend a lot of time working on when she does Bowen on her. I'm sure if I could get her working in better self carriage, she'd unblock this area and make life more comfortable for herself.
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Post by sarahfox on Oct 11, 2007 13:14:46 GMT 1
Heather, Just out of curiosity,would you say that it is important for the average leisure rider to get their horse in true self carriage? I would have thought that for those mainly wishing to hack that the journey is far too long and arduous with so many pitfalls along the way. Also,imho many horses are conformationally unsuited to riding and that is the reason that true self carriage doesnt occur. Would it not be best for these riders ( no criticism to horses or riders intended btw!) and horses to learn to adopt the style of carriage that cokeys horse is displaying,and lauras too,where the horse is reasonably balanced for the work it is doing,soft and happy? I know that your aim with a horse is to train the classical way towards collection,which originated in order to prolong a war horses working life and allow the horse to take the knight into war,but if somebody wants to merely acheive a harmonious relationship with their horse without spending many many hours training,then would it not be an option to simply forget about self carriage,or being 'on the bit' and aim instead to leave the front end alone and let it be wherever it is? I just wonder if people these days are too obsessed with their horse needing to be 'on the bit' and that is what leads to an awful lot of suffering on the horses part as there are so few trainers that have the knowledge or the skills to do it correctly themselves on a suitable horse let alone train another on what may be not such a suitable horse. Cokey, I dont understand why you take heathers comments so personally,I dont think anybody else sees them as intended that way,please dont be norty and get what is a very informative thread deleted! Your horse pic is lovely imo,its just a different way of riding,no better or worse,just different.
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gemma
Novice Poster
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Post by gemma on Oct 11, 2007 13:27:42 GMT 1
Heather, Just out of curiosity,would you say that it is important for the average leisure rider to get their horse in true self carriage? I would have thought that for those mainly wishing to hack that the journey is far too long and arduous with so many pitfalls along the way. Also,imho many horses are conformationally unsuited to riding and that is the reason that true self carriage doesnt occur. Would it not be best for these riders ( no criticism to horses or riders intended btw!) and horses to learn to adopt the style of carriage that cokeys horse is displaying,and lauras too,where the horse is reasonably balanced for the work it is doing,soft and happy? I know that your aim with a horse is to train the classical way towards collection,which originated in order to prolong a war horses working life and allow the horse to take the knight into war,but if somebody wants to merely acheive a harmonious relationship with their horse without spending many many hours training,then would it not be an option to simply forget about self carriage,or being 'on the bit' and aim instead to leave the front end alone and let it be wherever it is? I just wonder if people these days are too obsessed with their horse needing to be 'on the bit' and that is what leads to an awful lot of suffering on the horses part as there are so few trainers that have the knowledge or the skills to do it correctly themselves on a suitable horse let alone train another on what may be not such a suitable horse. That's a really interesting point Sarah. Marigold's current way of going is very similar to cokey's Olive. She seems to carry herself reasonably well, but not in the classical shape as shown by Heather's horses. And, for her current level in endurance, that is good enough. She is schooled regularly to ensure she's not dragging herself along on the forehand too much (which she has a tendency to do if I let her!), but given her current workload, and her conformation, I'm happy enough with that for now. As we start to do ERs and the need to carry herself most efficiently increases, then we are going to need some help from a suitable instructor.
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Post by heather on Oct 11, 2007 13:38:56 GMT 1
Sadly Susan,
Keysoe is a pig of a place to get to from Devon! I am booked solidly from now until New Year too.
I have had a number of RWYM people come here on courses, and no one seems to be able to show me what is meant- all seem to interpret it differently!
Plugging in my seatbones, means that I cant use my seat in downward transitions, because my seatbones lift up inside my bum when using it, or when 'sucking up', into collection.
Are your seatbones 'plugged in' all of the time? I couldnt achieve collected movements/ piaffe and passage, if mine were.
Heather
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Post by heather on Oct 11, 2007 13:51:52 GMT 1
Sarah,
An interesting point, but I have never yet found a horse that cant actually work in a correct novice frame. To me, a horse that isnt on the bit, is actually in charge of the rider, not the other way around, and on todays roads that isnt a safe place to be!
A horse who is going along, poking nose and hollowing, can brace the braciocephalic muscle on the underside of the neck and is then well placed to bolt and be virtually unstoppable.
I would never ride a horse on the road that didnt at least leg yield. And if he braces his neck on the underside, the reaction to the leg yield wouldnt be quick enough in case of an emergency.
I know for absolutely sure, that I wouldnt be alive today were it not for riding a well schooled horse. I was out hacking on our Devon dug out lanes - no verges to get on to out of the way of a vehicle- on Reece, an ex racehorse, we had reschooled, but at that point, only to novice level.
A school bus came rippiing round a bend, thankfully there was just a tiny pull in at the side of the lane, I applied my leg for Reece to leg yield, to which he responded instantly. The bus scraped my stirrup the entire length of the vehicle, I can see the kids faces to this day. Had I not been on a horse as well schooled in such a basic exercise, and being 'in front of the leg' so that he reacted absolutely instantly to my aid, I know, without any shadow of a doubt, that we would have been under that bus. Good job he was also so traffic proof!
for instance, too, to teach the horse shoulder in, means that you can prevent it shying into the path of traffic. Turn on the forehand to open gates!
Any horse that is fit to ride can be taught to work on the bit, and to move sideways. They are not all going to be grand prix horses!!- but a horse schooled in just the correct basics, is purely and simply, a safer one. The rider with a good seat will also stay on better in an emergency, and be better placed to give the aids!! So for me, riding well and schooling the horse, is not about just looking pretty, it also saved my bacon!!
Heather
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Post by Donnalex on Oct 11, 2007 13:53:35 GMT 1
Yes Sarah it is much more difficult for some horses to achieve self carriage than others. Spanish types have been selectively bred to be able to sit far more easily than o lot of other breeds, but they are not as good at extension as some others, its horses for courses really. My Highland is longer in the back than a Spanish type and also he is a bit croup high. This is why I have really struggled to get him going softly, but it has been worth the effort because now out on a hack he is absolutely georgeous to ride, where before he rode life a clumpy carthorse. I am not saying that he is classically perfect but he is much improved by working along those principles. Last winter I had the privelige of spending some time with a Spanish rider who had recently left the Spirit of the Horse tour to settle in England. He explained and showed me what he looks for in a horse and gave me a little instruction on a partly trained Andalusian stallion. That horse gave me the feeling of floating 6 inch above the ground, he would sweep sideways at the slightest pressure and was incredibly soft in the hand. All this at 5 years old. Achieving this feel any other way takes years. He told me that the walk makes the horse, I am presuming he meant the counted walk or a version of it? He also showed me the good points to look for in a horse to ride, these included being able to stand with his legs so far underneath him that his footprints made a square, a short back with a slight mound just behind the saddle and a back end that was naturally lower than the front. He made me think seriously about selling my Highland but I decided if I could work with him I would learn more
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Post by heather on Oct 11, 2007 14:09:58 GMT 1
Nooooo, dont sell your Highland, Dona!! they can be really talented! I have owned four, still own one that I bred, who was too small for me, so loaned him out to some of my closest friends years ago, but all did super lateral work, and had great canters! One mare, Tamara, won the medium winter champs in Scotland a few years ago, and one of my forum members is doing some beautiful work with her Highlands. Will try to get some pics of her. They are real little baroque horses, usually find it pretty easy to engage the hindend, maybe not such extravagance in extension as a Connemara or Welsh Cob , for instance, are capable of, but brilliant ponies, none the less! Heather
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Post by june on Oct 11, 2007 14:18:08 GMT 1
Agree wholeheartedly about having a good seat being so important in staying on board! I took one of our polo ponies to the beach last year and she was completely freaked out by footprints in the sand. If I hadn't gone down the RWYM route and developed a much better seat I'd have been off several times. As it was I was able to work through it and even enjoy it and while she didn't really enjoy it, she coped and got some confidence from me.
Mary admits that "bear down" is a misnomer. All bear down is is engaging your core muscles. So, if you think of your skin being a cyclinder, you push your stomach and back muscles out against the cylinder of your skin. If anything, it should be called bear out but even then that isn't quite right as your skin stops the out part! And, it is possible to "bear down" too much and block forward movement so that isn't good either. It is about having tone in your body and being stable and easy for the horse to carry.
On the RWYM seat bone thing, yes, your seat bones are plugged in but you can have seat bones that are stillettos or trainers. The aim is to ride with seat bones as trainers. Stillettos would cause the horse to hollow. The seatbones are sucked up with a ring of muscle round them to create trainers and it is the sucking up that causes the horse to lift the back. Plugging the seat bones in doesn't mean digging them in. It means keeping them in the same position on the horse so the seat moves with the horse and is still in the saddle. That's my interpretation anyway!
Prior to having RWYM lessons I had a hover where my seat wasn't really in contact with the saddle and I moved more than the horse. I'd had lessons for probably 20 years and no one had ever noticed that. I'd disguised my hover well and it did mean I could ride most horses and could generally keep them pretty calm but I couldn't really affect their way of going. Discovering that I could engage seat bones and then suck them up was mind blowing! Suddenly my polo ponies could do self carriage - and I mean Heather's type of self carriage although not quite to that extent and it took no kicking or pulling!
No one on here should be intimidated by the experts. Everyone has valid experiences and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. If something is working for you and your horses then that tells you you are on the right track.
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