Self Carriage Question

[bhpride]

Morning all

1) How long does it take a horse to learn self carriage with reg schooling?

Thank you

[Roz]

I'm trying to achieve this with Solsti at the moment, we've just about got it in walk, but trot is another matter! To be honest I really think it depends on the rider, sort of how long is a piece of string question!

[cokey]

It also depends on the horse - some horses just "have it", and some just really don't.... Sort of like people then!!

[Roz]

Very true Cokey, Solsti at present is rather downhill whereas Yogi is naturally uphill, guess which ones easier to ride!!! LOL!

[gem]

I have no idea but i was trying with Sky - I have yet to establish it !

[cokey]

It will also depend, very much, on the style of riding that you adopt. For example, Olive was appallingly unbalanced and heavy on the forehand when ridden with a traditional contact. Now I don't have any contact at all - I mean literally ridden on the buckle at all gaits, and she's suddenly "found" her self-carriage.... see..?




So, when I go to pick up the contact again, I should already have a balanced horse, and will just need to refine the outline...

[Karon]

I love that photo, Cokey That's what I'd aim for with mine - when we eventually manage to find canter....

[bhpride]

hmm thanks, fingers crossed lol

[heather]

Cokey,

I'm not getting into another PNH argument, honest!! But Linda Parelli's idea of collection and self carriage are poles apart from the true classical sense.

It also depends on the level of the education of the horse, a young horses self carriage will be different to one at a higher level of training.

In French classical equitation, balance is sought, before movement, so everything is done very, very slowly, but still with energy, usually at a pace called the 'counted walk', so that the horse develops lightness in the hand, and a shorter base, the joints having to compress and develop more upwards spring, leading to increased elevation. From this base, he can be pushed out into more enlarged steps without losing the lightness and expression.

It is the complete opposite way round to the more popular German system of training, which encourages considerable forward movement, even wanting the horse to lean on the bit in the early stages, gradually working towards self carriage over several years.

Sadly, this is often not the case, the rider still riding as strongly leg into hand at the highest levels, and true lightness and self carriage never being either sought, or achieved. It is perfectly possible to achieve lightness using the German system, but it is also easy to get away with training the horse to high levels without lightness becoming apparent. With many high level combinations, if you cut the reins, the rider would ping off backwards!

Heather

[lucia]

Heather,
I've noticed mention of the counted walk a lot - can you tell me 'an idiots' guide as to how you would go about it? (Would it be effective on an older horse that tends to pull herself along on the forehand, doesn't 'do' schooling and has stiffness in the hind legs? Not really planning on trying it as the horse in question hates schooling and is a nice hack but just out of interest!)
Thanks!

[Donnalex]

It depends on the type of horse and its attitude to work. Also on the rider, some horses will never get there because their riders arent capable of feeling very much at all. And it depends on the instructor if there is one.
The Spanish types find self carriage much easier, they have been bred to find it easier than other breeds for years. My Highland is sort of getting there but obviously hes a bit clumpy and finds lifting his front very hard work. You have to be quick to realise when enough is enough for one day, if they are mentally or physically tired they will go worse not better. Some people hammer them round and round hoping to drum it in without success, they are actually teaching the horse that this is what they want if they allow it to go on.

[jill]

Maybe before we go any further we ought to define self carriage? For me it means a horse in balance, with his hocks engaged and stepping under, and responsive to the lightest of rein aids (which generally has as a side effect, a horse in an outline with flexion from the poll) - what does everybody else understand it to mean?

[bhpride]

hmm I understand it has the horses hindquarters under the horse/the horse uses it's hindquarters rather than dragging with the front - light on the forehand has a result

[lizziee]

Intereseting Heather, I have been taught the "strong leg into hand" method and haven't found it terribly satisfactory as it seems to me you're confusing the horse by pushing forward with the leg and halting with the hand (I guess the idea is that the horse goes up if it can't go forward; my experience is that it just puts itself in a false outline and drags itself along on the forehand, but then I've probably been doing it wrong). I now tend to ride with a very light contact (partly due to Count Rocco objecting to anything stronger by putting his nose in the air) and slow the horse using my seat and position rather than the reins, and I feel much more impulsion and positive energy, with the horse seeming to enjoy the experience far more. Problem is, I'm not sure this is "correct" in the classical sense, and if I'm doing Rocco more harm than good by letting him find his own balance with minimal interference with the reins.

[Susan]

It is strange we ask how do we teach self carriage, when it is Self Carriage, the horse holding itself.
I believed the horse already knows how to hold itself, it is us who need to know how to ask the question so it understands surely.

When I had conventional lessons, I was told you needed to ride horse from the leg into your hand. Now what did that mean truly? Hold it in at the front and kick hard?? as that is what many had me do, guess what? it didnt work because it cant be forced and I wasnt good enough rider either.

Many see self carriage or Outline as a shape.. and it is not only a shape, and that usually is a horse held in.
But Self Carriage or true outline is a soft look and a lift of the back and the horse certainly working from the hind quarters over the back into the poll and down. that Circle Mark R speaks of. He the horse would need to step under and I think if I am right Heather explains it and Mary W but walking on your hands and knees with your back lift up like a bridge or hollowed.. and you get to understand soft cant be tense and hollow., it is physically possible.

So I can only say how I gain it, if I beardown, think the energy forwards from my core I can get a soft horse in self carriage.
That is my question to Flynn.


Kathleen Lindley this year ( marks representative this year her UK tour) had a spooky horse on her list to work with, who was all tense and hollow.
But with showing the rider how her horse needed to know it was better to be soft, was the big cue. She had to ride with same contact but only soften when her horse did, Keep the question the same, in walk and trot and canter.
We saw it happen in front of us, how her horse discovered it was easier to woprk soft and from behind and it went into self carriage. It was truly lovely to watch.

It showed once the horse knew it could move that way with the rider on its back, and listen to her not be concerned with what might happen somewhere else and go tense..it was easier.


Now I can only speak from my own experience but Flynn will go into self carriage when I ride with enough beardown and energy forwards with still hands and a cantact but NOT held in, he will work through right from the back over into the front.

Mark Rashid talks of circles of energy, the hind end is one, going forwards, the front end is another going forwards and we are in the middle inside of another going forwards and all should go in the same direction.

When we get that right the horse normally will go into self carriage.