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Post by smonebull on Oct 10, 2007 17:39:40 GMT 1
I'm not getting into another PNH argument, honest!! But Linda Parelli's idea of collection and self carriage are poles apart from the true classical sense.
It also depends on the level of the education of the horse, a young horses self carriage will be different to one at a higher level of training.
In French classical equitation, balance is sought, before movement, so everything is done very, very slowly, but still with energy, usually at a pace called the 'counted walk', so that the horse develops lightness in the hand, and a shorter base, the joints having to compress and develop more upwards spring, leading to increased elevation. From this base, he can be pushed out into more enlarged steps without losing the lightness and expression.
I'm glad you posted this Heather....its how I have started delboy off and everyone keeps saying....'come on havent you done anything but walk yet?' but I too think its so important to establish balance and correct muscles before even thinking about going into trot.
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Post by Donnalex on Oct 10, 2007 18:05:25 GMT 1
:-[What is PNH? Everybody except me seems to know.
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Post by Liz on Oct 10, 2007 18:15:38 GMT 1
I had a horse with absolutely natural self carriage and he was amazing to ride - SO light. Here's a pic of him as a very green baby with my friend riding him. It's taken from a slightly lopsided video so not very clear. He is wearing a hackamore as when I got him he had been roughly broken and handled and was scared to death of a bit. He did resume wearing a bit at a much later stage and thankfully retained his self carriage. My friend is using her own saddle - I prefer English! Excellent hands and a very light touch were a must with this chap - I was certainly not good enough!
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Post by Casper on Oct 10, 2007 18:15:45 GMT 1
Parelli Natural Horsemanship Dona. Now pop your tin hat on and run - the P word always sparks extreme discussions!!!
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Post by heather on Oct 10, 2007 18:59:39 GMT 1
Liz hackamore or not, your horse is at his level, in self carriage, and it bodes well for the future development! It was my show jumper years ago, who was a hell of a puller, who introduced me to the concept of the hackamore and true lightness, as it happens!
He was a very hot Irish TB, and once at the front on a hack, you hadnt a mission of stopping until the other end!
I had to lead a hack on him- this was when I had a riding school some years ago, and he had been bitten on the corner of his mouth, larking about with an equine friend.
I needed to use him to lead the hack - so put him, somewhat in trepidation, in a simple English hackamore.
I turned onto a bridleway that had stubble running its full length. Have to say, I was thinking- 'well here we go'. I got the absolute shock of my life, instead of tanking off, he stayed, incredibly light in hand, in the most amazing uphill, and totally collected canter, non looped reins. I had never, at that time, felt anything like it! (I never rode him in a bit again, except for x country, when he was not happy in the hackamore, and I didnt want to lose the lightness. But he went x country best, in a bendy rubber snaffle!)
It was what I had seen the great Portuguese Maestro, Nuno Oliveira achieving, on the weight of the reins, at the HOYS. But, noone in England had ever been able to teach me this.
It was that experience, and one other, that made me seek out Capt Desi Lorent, a student of Nuno Oliveira, residing here in Devon at that time. And the rest is history.
It was the hackamore that gave me the first feeling of real lightness that I had been seeking, so I for one wont knock it!! ;D
Heather
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Bay Mare
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Post by Bay Mare on Oct 10, 2007 18:59:57 GMT 1
Heather - can you describe 'counted walk' please? I know that you've gone through it before but I can't find it!
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Post by heather on Oct 10, 2007 19:19:58 GMT 1
Its a very slow, elevated walk, which is actually two time, being diagonalised. I am loathe to advocate that people who dont know the methods should try it without an instructor to show them, who knows what they are doing. It is not damaging to the horse, but it must still be carried out with energy. It is such a difficult thing to explain as so much of it is through feel!The rider has to slow the walk, but absolutely not by pulling back with the hands. It has to be in complete lightness and self carriage, with the horse not putting any pressure on the bit.
There are so few trainers who really know the French system, as it has been so unfashionable in comparison with the German system, it was, even when I was first learning the French school, over 25 years ago!
But I am on course to set up a new 'French Revolution'!! The French system allows owners of much more ordinary horses, to transform them into horses that can perform advanced movements, without having to possess the paces of a £50,000 warmblood! It gives riders the tools to produce horses working with great lightness, and lightness means a better partnership, and a kinder way too!
I need to think more, about a way in which to describe the counted walk. It works to tip the pelvis under, and elevate the withers, so that the horse becomes light in hand, but not falsely so.
Maybe it would be better to try to upload some video!
Heather
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lizziee
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Post by lizziee on Oct 10, 2007 19:26:24 GMT 1
Heather, if you want a guinea pig for your French system, let me know! Count Rocco and his slave await ;D
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Post by smonebull on Oct 10, 2007 19:27:36 GMT 1
would a french horse help too? LOL
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Post by heather on Oct 10, 2007 19:36:16 GMT 1
;D The funny thing is, that the best exponents of French classical equitation I know nowadays, are all either German, or Portuguese!
Sadly the French have moved away from their own heritage. Even as far back as the 1950's, a party fo French riders discovered Nuno Oliveira. Marvelling at his riding, they asked 'What is this wonderful horsemanship you practice'. A stunned Oliveira stuttered, 'Why your own, of course'!! Ironic, eh?
For me, Anja Beran is one of the finest riders and trainers of today in the French manner- she is taking a clinic in Manchester area next May, btw.
Another is Rodrigo da Costa Matos, one of the main riders of the Portuguese School of Equestrian Art, and a personal friend of mine. He has agreed to come to the UK to take clinics too- if I can get enough interest!
Heather
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Post by smonebull on Oct 10, 2007 19:37:48 GMT 1
*puts hand up* me ME!
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cokey
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Post by cokey on Oct 10, 2007 20:32:02 GMT 1
Hi Heather,
You didn't upset me with your comment. You just reminded me why so few of us "mere mortals" comment on these "how to" threads any more. How can we ever be brave enough to post on a thread where our ideals and goals are held up to ridicule and nit picking by esteemed professionals?? I
My ideals and my goals are to have a horse that is happy in its work and in true self-carriage. That is not "French classical" self carriage. That is not "german" self carriage.... It is self carriage in the truest dictionary definition of the word. Any definitions above and beyond that are the stuff of most of the members of this forum's dreams tbh. I'm sure that you are not trying to show off by posting pictures of yourself, but you must surely realise that by doing so, you are making sure that noone else posts any pictures, as obviously there are very few of us that can aspire to that level of riding. I know that this will be the last time that *I* post a picture....
As you should have gleaned from my first post, Olive is very much a "work in progress". She is a damaged horse, and will never be capable of the level of collection that your horses show. She is actually off to the vets tomorrow to determine whether or not she continues her ridden career. She is also a TBx, which is not a breed noted for its natural self carriage, unlike the iberians and trakheners which you favour. So, I am starting from a very different standpoint, and in comparisons with a luso stallion, Olive will always come off worst.
I would also like to point out, that just because I am a PNH student does not mean that I subscribe to all of LP's fluidity concepts. Obviously, I am very aware of them, and some of her teachings I feel are very valid. But it does NOT mean that I am a LP devotee.. And it certainly does not give you the right to pass me off as someone who is closed minded and ignorant of other ways. Yes, the calm and confident horse you see in that picture is the result of the PNH program - Olive had almost been written off as unrideable before we started PNH, but it has very little to do with LP's fluidity. Indeed, if I tried to shift my saddle back by even an inch, I'd be on the floor before I'd gone ten feet, Olive is so sensitive. I read, and react to what my horse is telling me, and I ride in a way that she tells me is comfortable, and to suggest otherwise is unfair. JMHO, of course....
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Post by heather on Oct 10, 2007 21:05:25 GMT 1
Hi Cokey,
I am sorry that you feel that my posting photos, should put you off! The gelding in my photo, was so difficult when we first had him, that my vet wanted to have him scanned for a potential brain tumour. He was so absolutely lost, trusted no one, and was scared of his own shadow. He is now a happy, trusting horse, who is one of the most intelligent and quickest learners, I have ever had the privilege to work with. But we didnt use PNH to achieve it!!!
The stallion in the lower photo, wasnt backed until he was nine years old, left in a stable for many years, doing nothing. Neither were expensive, easy horses.
I love the Iberian breeds, yes, but have worked with every breed and type you could imagine, especially ex racehorses and Arabs.
For the demo I am doing at the Northern Equine Event, I am using as a demo model, my EE teacher Omar, and his £800 coloured cob, Ketchup. She is a sharp, hot little horse, not what people expect of a cob, and could easily have ended up really bad in the wrong hands.
This little mare performs all the lateral work beautifully, Spanish walk, a piaffe better than most GP horses, and passage. Omar is writing a book called 'Cobs Can'!!
Not quite sure, though, what the dictionary definition of 'self carriage' is?
Heather
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cokey
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Post by cokey on Oct 10, 2007 21:15:10 GMT 1
Good for you, Heather. As long as you don't feel that you're putting anyone off posting on this amateur forum, then who am I to suggest that you are doing exactly that..?
It's lovely to hear about the fantastic transformations that you've made with your horses, however, you ARE a professional trainer, and if *you* couldn't train difficult horses, then you'd be doing (to use a PPism) a P-Poor job.....
I would just like to add, that as a lay person doing this as a hobby, I'm as proud of Olive doing what you clearly think is a P-Poor job of holding herself in self carriage as you would be of getting your £800 cob to do passage.....
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Post by heather on Oct 10, 2007 21:41:50 GMT 1
She's not my cob though, Cokey, ;)and I havent trained her at all! She is in Cumbria, I live in Devon! Omar is actually a school teacher, although he has now trained as one of my EE teachers too. He has trained her entirely himself. You are right to be proud of Olive, of course! But the question was about self carriage, and I merely was trying to point out the accepted idea of it! It is an amateur forum, but some of the members seem to appreciate it when a professional gives their time to try to help! Heather
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