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Post by jen1 on Oct 10, 2007 12:47:05 GMT 1
well im strange and i just make room for barney to lift his back,make sure i have mi iron rods in the right place and my knicker elastic is working, use my core stabilty,and make sur im taking him leg for leg, we can hold it for oo 2 minutes,and im bushed,lol,just to add if im getting it right i often drop my contact and barney will perform better,
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Post by jennyb on Oct 10, 2007 13:11:29 GMT 1
I agree that horses know how to do it themselves - you only need to look at them showing off in the field to see great self carriage! But the problem comes when you add the weight of a rider, then you upset the horse's natural balance and have to educate him how to re-achieve it with a rider on board. You need to ask the horse to engage the hind leg more but without adding speed, and encourage the horse to work over his back, with toned abs and a soft rein contact so that the postural "ring of muscle" is activated - then you have self carriage. The horse should not be dependant on the rider's body or rein to hold this posture.
And how to do all that - well, there's the fun part! Firstly you need a balanced, effective rider with a good seat. Then you need to slowly develop the horse's gymnastic ability through a range of carefully considered exercises which encourage, but not force, the horse to work the correct muscles. Once his muscles are strong and he is fit, he will be able to work in self carriage for longer periods each time.
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Post by jennyb on Oct 10, 2007 13:12:34 GMT 1
Oh, and if it's all correct then it shouldn't be exhausting for the rider!
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Post by bhpride on Oct 10, 2007 13:16:42 GMT 1
hmm I've read about the exercises to get the hindquarters working transitions, walk to canter, walk to trot, bending, half halts -anything else?
Would long reining/lunging with long low side reins have the same effect, to help build up the right muscles? or would you need something like a pessoa to have the right result?
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Post by jen1 on Oct 10, 2007 13:22:11 GMT 1
Oh, and if it's all correct then it shouldn't be exhausting for the rider! only when your fat and unfit like me ;D
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Post by jen1 on Oct 10, 2007 13:24:26 GMT 1
hmm I've read about the exercises to get the hindquarters working transitions, walk to canter, walk to trot, bending, half halts -anything else? Would long reining/lunging with long low side reins have the same effect, to help build up the right muscles? or would you need something like a pessoa to have the right result? it would help to get him fit, my view on self carriage is the horse shortening his belly muscles, enabling him to to use his legs,the above could susceed in pulling his head in,
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Post by jennyb on Oct 10, 2007 13:25:27 GMT 1
Less of the fat, you!! You svelte lady, you!
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Post by bhpride on Oct 10, 2007 13:26:31 GMT 1
Jen How about longreining/lunging without side reins? thanks
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Post by Louise C on Oct 10, 2007 13:49:41 GMT 1
bhpride - my boy works beautifully from behind quite a lot now - he's 11 and he's never used a Passoa or side reins in his life. He does longrein nicely - he now has the longlines halfway up the saddle rather than at normal stirrup length.
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Post by bhpride on Oct 10, 2007 14:13:37 GMT 1
Is there a particular benefit by doing that? I'd like to know 100% what's best lunging wise if it will help, thanks
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Post by heather on Oct 10, 2007 14:27:33 GMT 1
For me, self carriage is when there is an absence of resistance throughout the horse, and the horse being able to work on the weight of the reins only. This comes from a relaxed jaw, which in turn, allows the rest of the horse to work freely. I do the opposite to 'bear down' Susan, I 'suck the horse's back up' into a seat which is light, and leaves room for the back. This is a photo of me on my Lusitano gelding Sudi, in self carriage for his level of training at the time, which was with lateral work established. He had been ridden by the person who had him for schooling for some months before I had him, in a rather tight, leg into hand way, and he rushed everywhere at a speed of knots! We worked to slow him down, and get him carrying himself, reacting to the leg positively, but not rushing off, and this is where he was at, in this photo. I am in the sit phase of rising trot, in case you wonder why my upper body is not upright! This means that I am landing lightly in the saddle and ready to receive his forward impetus, not have to thrust to make it myself. This photo of me on my friend's Luso stallion, which I have posted before, so sorry to bore!- is what I am aiming for in my riding, and he shows self carriage at an advanced level. Just my two penn' orth! Heather
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cokey
Grand Prix Poster
My babies
Posts: 2,224
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Post by cokey on Oct 10, 2007 15:05:18 GMT 1
I have no desire to get into any arguments at all, Heather, but can I just ask why you think Olive is not in self-carriage there. She is balanced, rhythmical and carrying herself.. Is that not self carriage? I'm truly interested, as I was of the opinion that, PNH or no PNH, self carriage was just that - the act of carrying oneself in balance... To be honest, though, you have done me a huge favour and reminded me why I don't post on these questions very much any more. I shall get under my rock again. ;D
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Post by Donnalex on Oct 10, 2007 17:10:12 GMT 1
Cokey - I think its because your horse is strung out and all your energy is out the front door rather than contained which makes it rather flat, as opposed to uphill compared to the two pictures Heather has put up. But I will stand corrected by somebody with a bit more clout of course!
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Post by Casper on Oct 10, 2007 17:20:34 GMT 1
I must be blind because I thought Cokey and Olive look great together as well as the two photos of Heather riding. To me self carriage is for the horse to be able to do everything with a rider on his or her back that he can do freely in the field, without the rider getting in his way at all. The horse already knows how to do all the things we expect them to do, he or she probably does the majority of them every day when out in the field. It is us riders who stop it happening when riding.
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Post by heather on Oct 10, 2007 17:29:36 GMT 1
Hi Cokey, I'm sorry if I upset you with my comment. Perhaps you and I are looking for different things in 'self carriage', I am coming from a classical riding perspective, whereby we want the horse to be much rounder, creating a 'bridge' under us, and which strengthens the back to carry the rider. Your horse is in a long frame, with very extended neck. It would considered self carriage, yes, but would be the self carriage to be expected from a young horse in the first stages of education. Perhaps this is the case with your horse? But for instance, in the Horse Scene magazine this month, there is an article by Linda Parelli, where she talks about 'collection vv engagement' and that she is working on collection on her horse Remmer. The photos show a very relaxed horse, carrying himself yes, in a very novice outline, on no contact or a very loose one, but her horse certainly shows no collection. There is a huge difference too, in engaging the hindleg, and engaging the hindquarter. In the former, the hindleg swings under and then back way beyond the point of the hip- look at any of the photos in the dressage section of Horse and Hound to see this. This then thrusts the horse forward in a more horizontal way, to cover more ground, and can lead to a loss of elevation, unless the horse is bred to move with length of stride and elevation, as are the mega expensive warmbloods! But as Philippe Karl says on his website, not everyone can afford a horse that is born, half trained! In the latter, engagement of the hindquarters, the hindleg comes very little beyond the point of the hip, and the leg doesnt swing far under, instead, the joints compress, leading to a more elevated step because the thrust is upward, not forwards. But from this point, the steps can gradually be enlarged, without losing the elevation. The rider also needs to help the horse maintain self carriage, if the rider is floppy and loose, not poised and controlled, it is nigh on impossible for the horse to maintain a more advanced self carriage. He can manage it in a long young horse outline, but it isnt possible for a rider to maintain the horse's self carriage in collection, if not in self carriage themselves. This is why the PNH Riding in Fluidity drives me nuts, it is the complete opposite of self carriage, and would be completely impossible to achieve anything other than the very lowest level of self carriage, sitting in that way. Heather
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