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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Jun 22, 2007 12:55:38 GMT 1
Hi Piglet
Your mare sounds incredibly similar to mine, right down to being green at an older age due to injuries and time off, unbalanced muscle development (when I got my mare she looked like 2 different horses who'd been welded together in the middle), being highly intelligent and somewhat opinionated! She even reacts in exactly the same way to bits that she doesn't like when pressure is applied and again, is a saint who goes off a whisper of aids on a good day, but can be a serious handful on a bad day.
I was also told the same about a straight mouthpiece giving her something to hold onto, and with a mare who's past book of tricks included legging it and refusing to stop (and she can also put her tongue over the bit if she chooses, but also puts it back under again all by herself), however, she has a low palate, fleshy tongue and no room for a bit so I decided to try a straight bar anyway. I'm glad I did as it's most definitely her mouthpiece of choice.
I'd give it a mullen mouth pelham a try, it may well be just what you're looking for. You can usually pick them up fairly cheaply from Ebay if you don't mind having a metal curb chain. My mare goes best in the metal curb but I've also tried her in an elastic one which didn't seem to have any affect at all, and either way you'd have to buy an elastic or leather curb separately.
Hope this helps Amanda
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piglet
Novice Poster
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Post by piglet on Jun 22, 2007 14:08:08 GMT 1
Hi Amanda,
Yes, that does help, thank you very much! I am having a strange sense of deja vu - I feel we may have discussed our mares before somehow. Yours sounds soooo similar to mine - I described her as looking like a 'cut-and-shut' car when I first bought her!
My instructor was going to help me and lend me a bit, so I may see if she has something like the mullen mouth. If my mare takes a 5.5in snaffle, would she take the same size pelham? I know sometimes the sizes differ between styles… :-o
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Post by heather on Jun 22, 2007 14:10:24 GMT 1
I would also give the same advice Amanda- would try the elastic curb first Piglet, as it is so mild in action. The leather one can be too solid- elastic works better. If she still doesnt respect it, then move to the metal one.
The best way to practise picking up and handling double reins, is to put them on the back of a chair, and sit on another one, picking them up, and practising closing the relevent finger, and unclosing it, but without straightening your fingers- this can be too much of a jerk on the reins. All actions should be smooth and never backwards. Think of merely increasing and decreasing finger tension whichever rein you are bringing into play.
It can become as little as a vibration of the fingers, not even a squeeze, but this does depend on the horse as well. Some who have been trained to go on a heavier contact will never lighten as much as one who has never learnt to 'take a contact', but it should still be a lot lighter and more pleasant than one who has been forced in a snaffle and the nerve endings deadened. At least the curb groove gives a fresh and undamaged area to work on.
Heather
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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Jun 22, 2007 14:16:26 GMT 1
Hi Piglet I post on a couple of other boards so we might have spoken about our horses before ) She should take the same size pelham as any other bit, at least my mare does. The only bit she has a different size in is the myler comfort snaffle, I had to go to a 5" in that for some reason, and then she doesn't really like it much anyway. I practised using the back of a chair as Heather describes, it's a bit of an eye opener at first as to just how little it takes to affect the bit. Amanda
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 22, 2007 14:53:47 GMT 1
You can also ride with two reins on a snaffle bit to get the feel of managing the reins for real. Especially useful to practice opening and closing gates when you need to take four reins in one hand. BTW You turn the giving hand over and put the two reins in between the top two spaces of the receiving hand, so you have your snaffle rein on the outside of your hand and the curb rein to the middle.
The thing I love about riding with two reins is that due to my terrible riding education as a child, I started out with heavy hands, but riding with two reins brings my hands alive, it awakens me to the feel. I don't think Iwould be called heavy handed now, or even have been for a very long time, but I still delight in the extra focus and sensitivity it brings me.
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Post by heather on Jun 22, 2007 15:29:33 GMT 1
Yes, Sue, that is also a very good way to introduce yourself to double reins, thanks for reminding me of that. And yes, I know just what you mean about the 'delight in the extra focus and sensitivity it brings'.
Heather
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holly
Olympic Poster
Posts: 511
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Post by holly on Jun 22, 2007 18:19:49 GMT 1
heather, could you right us in really simple text for all us beginners how to ride with double reins correctly, please pretty please. which rein does what, when to use which that sort of thing. The thing is this has been an amazing thread and it has also changed my whole way of thinking. Maybe we could have virtual riding lessons and film our selves and we can see. may be a beginners course to start following on. So many of us on here so want to learn, many of us are mums and are limited on funds, so for the good of our horses and the want to learn would you help us. please. we no you are a busy lady, but you have been an inspiration to us all and would hate for you to leave the site now you are hear. please
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Post by heather on Jun 22, 2007 21:55:40 GMT 1
Hi Holly, My problem is that I have to spend a lot of time answering questions on my own forum, because members have paid to be there, but I know that so many IH members are on the same wavelength, and since meeting Sue Whitmore on here, I have had such interesting conversations with her, and with Derek Clark, that it has dragged me over here more often ;D.!! I nearly emailed Kelly, in case she thought I was making a takeover bid! The use of the pelham was explained very clearly in my book, Enlightened Equitation, but there is a fairly in depth article on my website in the 'library'- enlightenedequitation.com/public/library_pelham_use.htmlHope this helps, and very pleased that you are enjoying my participation! Heather
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 22, 2007 22:18:19 GMT 1
Heather, That is a totally brilliant article. Maybe I was lucky tho', nobody had ever taught me anything about my hands at all until I got to my "good" teachers. How could they, when I needed them to hang on to the pommel? So I was taught about using fingers to play the reins from the start of my "proper" education, and in fact, the sponge thing is something I have taught, probably as you have, for many years. Except I give novices sponges to hold, wet, not just ask them to imagine them ;D Thanks for the compliment, but I'm nowhere near as educated as you, just, as I have told you, *very opinionated*
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Post by heather on Jun 22, 2007 22:55:39 GMT 1
Yeah, but you are also open minded, and a lot of fun to converse with on the Net, Sue, and I look forward to meeting you soon!And 'opinionated'- well who would I be to judge, 'pot calling the kettle black', if ever!! ;D
Heather
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 22, 2007 23:04:08 GMT 1
I nicked this picture from a *model* horse website. It shows how I was taught to hold two reins. But there are in fact loads of different ways, as I have just learnt from the same website! Can't believe how much info there was there on double bridles - model makers must be as obsessed as we are! www.imeha.org/doublebridle.html
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Post by Zuzan on Jun 22, 2007 23:59:57 GMT 1
Re ways to hold 2 sets of reins .. I remember somewhere being taught to hold the reins "uncrossed" ie with the curb lower than the weymouth .. the different methods are also discussed on the sustainable dressage website too (think I posted the link on P1 or P2 of this thread.. but the method shown in the picture is apparently the way to hold the reins when hacking / riding out not schooling as the curb held this way has the potential to be used more strongly whereas if the curb is held lower down there can be more subtlety / sensitive use of the curb rein.. I never really did much schooling using both reins of a pelham but found it invaluable when riding out in preference to strapping my horse down with nosebands and martingales and what have you.. on imperfectly schooled horses I think pelhams are a wonderful way of being able to enjoy a forward going horse without hanging on to the bit .. the curb seemed to work as a kind of reflex.. gentle nudge under the chin and my horse was back with me rather than in the next county!
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 23, 2007 1:39:04 GMT 1
I think, but this is so long ago, I was told that the snaffle rein was held lower because if you moved your hand, there was more movement at the bottom and so the stronger action was on the snaffle. *But* if you are controlling your reins by finger squeezes, which is in fact what I teach(!), then your stronger finger would usually be your ring finger, so really, they would be better uncrossed. I love the feeling of the reins crossing, but this is probably not a good enough reason to persist if it is not doing what I intend!
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Post by heather on Jun 23, 2007 8:39:57 GMT 1
HI Zuzan,
The method shown is the traditional British way of holding double reins. There are several methods, none of them set in stone. The Fillis system that Philippe Karl advocates, has the reins held like a carriage driver, with one rein passing upwards through the whole hand from little finger to thumb, and the other passing down from thumb and exiting at the little finger. This method is much harder for the average rider to achieve subtlety with.
Then you can have reins not crossed and under the two fingers shown in the diagram, or crossed and separated by two fingers, or under third and fourth fingers! To me, it is a matter of personal preference, but I always teach the same way as in the diagram posted by Sue, as I feel that the lower two fingers have more flexibility/dexterity.
But I use the pelham on my horses in the school as well as out hacking, as you say, the curb does act on a reflex point in the curb groove and why it is so gentle in action, yet achieves an instant result.
Heather
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 23, 2007 23:40:30 GMT 1
Heather said Oh dear… there I was having a nice quiet couple of days away from the board, trying hard not to think of Heather in suspenders and …I think I detect the universal early warning signal of an impending metaphorical clip round the ear! Dear Heather, I am very sorry if, as it seems, you have chosen to take offence at something I have said. I can only apologise and assure you that was never my intention. My purpose in answering questions on this board has only ever been to try to bring information, which might otherwise never have been considered, to as many people as possible who share our common interest in doing the very best for our horses. Your CV is certainly impressive and thank you for sharing it. Clearly my experience in the saddle is by comparison with yourself relatively limited, though I'm sure you would agree it doesn’t necessarily follow that the thoughts, ideas and the questions I've posed are "wrong" or come only from Craig. As you know, much of the information I have posted is many hundreds of years old, though not yet generally very well known in this country. The interpretations which I’ve mentioned, however, come in part from various people I've met with many decades of riding behind them, in addition to my own practice and reflection. While there is much that I have yet to explore in the field of riding and training horses, I do hope that my own 25+ years of practical experience in teaching, coaching and developing the minds and bodies of elite athletes in other sports (including numerous world and Olympic champions), will give me half a chance of making a decent stab at it. You also implied in your message your concern that I, along with some other people who have studied with Craig, might be something of an “evangelist”. Since one of the dictionary definitions of that word is “a person who revives ideas”, I can only say I am grateful for the compliment! To reiterate once again, I don't regard anything as "good" or "bad" in itself (even snaffles! : - I am still looking forward to seeing you work in a few weeks and will bring my own mind along in “open and curious” mode, as always. I am keen to hear more about your experiences with the Portuguese masters, whom you may be surprised to know have also been described in glowing terms by Craig himself ;D Best wishes, Derek
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