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Post by nich on Jun 19, 2007 7:36:26 GMT 1
this thread is fascinating - thanks to everyone who is contributing. heather has bought up the subject of myler. My OH has just got a myler comfort ported bit, because his horse goes best in a waterford (before you jump, he has very light hands, and only moved to this after trying a KK ultra, and a happy mouth - the horse seems to appreciate the lightness and movement in the waterford). obviously the waterford is not dressage legal, so IH asked a bit bank what to try. The myler is the next best thing, it is so light, narrower, and moves independently.
However, I'm getting convined by all of this to try the double reined pelham option for my mare who has always had a kk ultra since I got her. no nut cracker action, but when I take up a real contact she does set her jaw against it and become quite heavy in my hands. I've always been concerned that I couldn't cope with 2 reins, guess i will just have to 'go for it'...
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Post by heather on Jun 19, 2007 8:19:10 GMT 1
Hi Derek,
Now Phillipe Karl IS someone I would term a 'Master', as is my own trainer, Mestre Luis Valenca.
I know Craig too, from many discussions some years ago on the Internet, and went to his first ever clinic here in the UK. Thanks for the invite, anyway.
I hope to go and see Philippe Karl at some stage next year in France. He trained my good friend Pierre Cousyn, himself holding the highest qualification at Saumur, but now living in the USA. I also have great time for another friend, Rodrigo Costa Matos, one of the riders of the Portuguese Escola, and a lovely kind, quiet rider, and very skilled trainer. I hope to bring him over to the UK to do clinics at some point.
But I think with Philipe/Baucherism in general, it can be damaging if not carried out in expert hands. Maybe not as damaging as rollkur, but whilst I absolutely love the third and fourth DVD's of Karl, the first two, if they were the only ones to be seen, could give a very wrong impression to the less educated viewer.
I like Bettina very much as a person, but she admitted to having moved away from Portuguese/French riding techniques. This is a great shame.
Heather
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 19, 2007 9:15:54 GMT 1
Hi Heather,
Let me know if you manage this. I'll certainly come along.
Ain't that always the way ;D Appearances can be very deceptive! Even videos on loading, starting, foal-handling, clicker training, join-up, you-name-it, can result in mayhem!
On his last visit, Craig showed me a hand-written letter he recently received from Philippe Karl after PK taught a clinic in Sweden which was attended by some of Craig's Scandinavian students. In it, PK complimented Craig on the level of education, understanding and skills (esp. the hands) which his students demonstrated during the clinic. I thought that was a very kind gesture.
Those students have also said that they found the clinic with PK fantastic, particularly as they had gained enough prior education to be able to actually do the things PK was suggesting. They did say they thought anyone without that level of skill and understanding might have struggled a bit!
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by heather on Jun 19, 2007 9:41:09 GMT 1
I would love to get PK over here too- but find it difficult to get British riders to pay the justifiable price of a master such as PK.
Heather
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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Jun 19, 2007 10:06:16 GMT 1
This presumes that the horses mouth has enough room for a jointed bit though, and many heavier types do not. My mare has no space between her tongue and palate to fit a bit and the only mouthpiece she'll tolerate is a myler comfort snaffle or a mullen mouth. She loathes joints (single or french) with a passion and will do the "mysterious disappearing bit" trick if I try to use one, she can suck the bit, rings and all, into her mouth. If I put the bit high enough to prevent this it's sat too high to be of any use and is unkind in and of itself.
I've gone through the steps of giving the horse a contact to work to and it'll sort itself out in time, I just ended up with an unhappy horse (regardless of who rode her), I tried lateral flexions, going back to groundwork (had the most success with this but wasn't 100% successful), changing the snaffle for different mouthpieces, just about everything. I changed instructors several times as each time we got to the point where they couldn't progress my mare any further.
In the end I went back to basics with a great instructor and we did get a long way with my mare but she still wouldn't give up that last bit of resistance - locking her jaw, until we tried a pelham. Yes she'll overbend in it if my contact is too much, usually this only happens when she gets over excited and tries to canter off at inappropriate times, but I take this as a sign that I need to change what I'm doing. She will work forwards and out to the contact at all other times, the pelham most definitely isn't used as a tool to reel her head in.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 19, 2007 10:18:23 GMT 1
Hi Amanda, Yes, absolutely. Good on you for persevering. I'm glad you've found a solution that works. As I've (tried ) to always indicate, I don't wish to label anything as "good" or "bad". This is an art (well, that's my particular fantasy, anyway ;D). My current personal belief is that every method, technique and/or approach has its benefits and its drawbacks. That's part of the fascination for me, finding the key to unpick each particular puzzle... Best wishes, Derek
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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Jun 19, 2007 11:04:39 GMT 1
I agree wholeheartedly. I just wish I was a better artist!
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Post by sara on Jun 19, 2007 11:51:15 GMT 1
What an interesting discussion. IT has been fasinating to read it all. It just seems such a shame Derek and Heather aren't closer to Yorkshire. I am looking at the moment for someone I can go to for some intense lessons, to really progress me and my horse. If either of you are ever up in Yorkshire, please let me know!
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Derek Clark
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Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 19, 2007 11:52:43 GMT 1
Well it sounds like your spirit is in exactly the right place. ;D Keep at it, you'll get there...
Can't remember who said this ( I think it was Nuno Oliveira, though it may be two quotes mixed together):
"The only approbation one should seek is that of one's horse. The true master ends her work, delighted because it was good and yet disappointed because she knows it can be better..."
Derek ;D
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Derek Clark
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Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 19, 2007 11:54:32 GMT 1
Hi sara,
I'd be delighted to come up and do a clinic if you can organise a few people. Drop me a PM if you like.
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by sara on Jun 19, 2007 12:23:39 GMT 1
have pm'ed you derek
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Emma S
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Post by Emma S on Jun 19, 2007 12:36:20 GMT 1
I first started riding Skotti in a loose ring single jointed snaffle with drop noseband, as most Icelandics are, but found him quite strong in company. So i looked for alternatives when hacking. I tried a short shank french link pelham (cav noseband) which resulted in no brakes what so-ever (quite scary) even in walk ! And then progressed to a copper french link American gag type (not sure of what its official name is) & cav noseband, works well - he seems happy in his mouth but can still be resistant through the jaw & neck resulting in no brakes when in exciting situations.
After reading this thread i think i'm going to give the pelham another go ! But this time try out a different mouth piece. I'm not sure he'll like the mullen mouth as i think he likes something to play with and have some room in there, which makes choosing one difficult. Perhaps a half moon would be a good start ?
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Post by bobbiesbit on Jun 19, 2007 17:55:32 GMT 1
wow this thread is great,im just thinking about changing my boys bit and would love some a dvice. Bobbi is a ten yr old coloured cob ,he has only ever been ridden in a eggbut french link,and does go quite well in it,but when in company out hacking he becomes very strong . He has got fleshy lips and also opens his mouth and sticks his tounge out the side of his mouth,and i dont know why ,i would apreciate any help anybody has to offer thanks julie.
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Post by bobbiesbit on Jun 19, 2007 19:02:40 GMT 1
anybody please
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Post by heather on Jun 20, 2007 9:02:36 GMT 1
Cobs go exceptionally well in the pelham Julie- I have had it completely transform the way of going in a few minutes, so much easier to get the shoulders up and lighten the forehand.
Heather
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