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Post by janetgeorge on Jun 18, 2007 19:01:19 GMT 1
Agreed. So, what exactly do we regard as scaffolding... and just what do we expect when it's removed... Derek In the case of my rider, it's his bloody legs! He HOLDS horses up with them and when i get on them they fall over sideways on a circle! And of course, there's bits - the horses who can't carry their heads without a grim-faced rider hauling their noses up off the floor. And side reins, and martingales ....
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Post by Francis Burton on Jun 18, 2007 19:05:54 GMT 1
Here's something which Lesley Skipper wrote in her new book Understanding Horse Behaviour which I like and think is relevant to the discussion:
Punishment is often confused with negative reinforcement, but as I said earlier, they are not the same thing. In fact they could be said to be opposites, because negative reinforcement acts to increase the likelihood of behaviour being repeated, whereas punishment (in theory at least) acts to decrease its likelihood. ...
Many people believe in punishment-based training, either because it is what they have been taught, or believe the use of punishment is an effective way to train animals. However, punishment is not really a very good training method. We can use it to tell a subject what not to do, but we cannot convey by this means what we want them to do. Even if we use it just to get rid of an unwanted behaviour, that behaviour may simply be replaced by another, equally unwanted behaviour; the punishment will do nothing to motivate the subject to switch to the kind of behaviour we do want. In terms of motivation, punishment is therefore a rather hit-and-miss affair. It must be administered immediatedly and be sufficiently strong to act as a deterrent. The degree of punishment has to be greater than the animal's desire or need to do whatever he is being punished for; or, as with excessive negative reinforcement, the subject may do as we wish, but make only sufficient effort to avoid punishment or the stimulus. Or he may simply make greater efforts to avoid being caught!
People often used punishment illogically. One often sees a rider giving their horse a smack with a whip because it has refused a fence. Such riders will often justify their actions on the grounds that the horse was being naughty in refusing, and they want to 'teach it a lesson'. Quite apart from the fact that the horse might have refused because it was afraid of the jump or unsure whether it could tackle it, how is is supposed to know that its refusal was the reason for its punishment? And how can it know that in order to avoid punishment next time, it had better jump any fence at the its rider points it?
...
Behaviour analyst Murray Sidman has written at length about the damaging side effects of coercion and punishment, which extend far beyond the circumstances in which they are used. However, this does not mean that we must never use punishment. There may be situations -- for example if a horse is behaving aggressively and we do not have enough information to know what it causing the aggression -- where we need to take action in order to avoid injury. As Dr Sidman points out in Coercion and its Fallout (Authors Cooperative Inc, 2000), in such situations '...common sense tells us that we have to use whatever effective means are at hand.' But as he goes on to say, the occasional emergency 'may justify punishment as a treatment of last resort, but never as the treatment of choice. To use punishment occasionally as an act of desperation is not the same as advocating the use of punishment as a principle of behaviour management.'
Punishment is not -- and cannot be -- a reinforcer. It is aimed at preventing an unwanted behaviour and so does not reinforce anything; you cannot reinforce behaviour that has not yet occurred!
Lesley then goes on to talk about 'extinction' and ignoring an unwanted behaviour as an effective alternative to punishment.
To sum up my own position (which differs slightly from Lesley's because I do believe punishment is an integral part of 'behaviour management' whether we like it or not): Any punishment that causes fear has no place in the training of horses. Taking 'punishment' to be defined in the strict behavioural sense, it seems clear to me that not all punishment causes fear. But if one is to avoid causing fear and making the horse afraid of you -- something I believe should be strenuously avoided -- the options available for punishment are severely limited. Examples of possible 'acceptable' punishers are: nose hugging (a la Jackie Taylor), mild discomfort (as in nibbling cures), transient self-inflicted pain (as when a biting horse runs into your elbow), and extra work (such as 'moving feet'). In day-to-day training (which excludes emergencies), deliberately inflicting pain or scaring a horse is unacceptable and counterproductive.
Therefore, I voted against the motion - but did so reluctantly.
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
Posts: 3,867
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Post by laura on Jun 18, 2007 19:11:15 GMT 1
ahh we are defining are we could be here all night then on "scaffolding !! and derek ..... how can you have a debate with that wording .... shame on you ........ ;D be careful or we might have to define "debate" I did wonder who removed the scaffolding from the front of my horse a few weeks ago when we were calmly walking along the road ...... her front end just disappeared and I ended up splat !!!!!!!!!! and even worse someone removed scaffolding all round from a fell I was cantering on and we did the splat like the famous kings horses did .... legs out in all directons . Did stay on that time, he was up again before I really realised ;D However I THINK the reference to scaffolding you appear to be discussing is "slightly" different to what I am rabbitin on about ........... but hey ........ twas a tale to tell ;D
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Post by Catrin on Jun 18, 2007 20:01:15 GMT 1
Now I have a theory about that, you see the French have slim bums, so they have to have comfy seats, so they sit differently from Germans, who, by and large, have bigger bums, so don't need such a comfy seat. Nope - doesn't compute. My rider is French - and he LIKES the hardest saddles in the place - including a Stubben close contact which is like ROCK! And he DOES have a very slim bum! The saddle fits my theory - german, made for the larger behind - are you sure your rider isn't Swiss?
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 18, 2007 20:12:20 GMT 1
Well then you ladies obvioisly haven't seen French Canadian men.... slim bums be-damned... ooo la la .... ;D
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 18, 2007 20:20:40 GMT 1
it doesn't matter WHAT the topic is, the tone ALWAYS gets lowered. maybe that should be the next debate can we ever discuss horses without discussing bums
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Post by janetgeorge on Jun 18, 2007 20:23:54 GMT 1
The saddle fits my theory - german, made for the larger behind - are you sure your rider isn't Swiss? Nope - definitely a proper Froggy - with a slim bum. The proof -
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EMW-UK
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Reg Charity 1114700 LISTEN WITH YOUR SOUL
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Post by EMW-UK on Jun 18, 2007 20:31:04 GMT 1
oh my! :-) :-) :-) how to make an old lady happy :-) emw x
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 18, 2007 20:37:56 GMT 1
Which bum are we supposed to be looking at The things you see when you don't have a whip and a glass of wine!!! See Gingerloon... I'm staying on topic.... I think whip with some positive reinforcement would do quite well in that situation. ;D
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Post by janetgeorge on Jun 18, 2007 20:42:08 GMT 1
Which bum are we supposed to be looking at The things you see when you don't have a whip and a glass of wine!!! Mmm - depends on what you fancy! I think Alfie has a nice bum - but I wouldn't use a whip on it (the bu**er would buck me off if I did) - whereas Olivier's tends to get my boot up it occasionally!
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Post by gingerloon on Jun 18, 2007 22:47:33 GMT 1
LOL ct patrick swayzee has a nice bum on a horse just need a paperbag for his face make that two, one for me just in case his breaks
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Derek Clark
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Olympic Poster
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 19, 2007 0:11:43 GMT 1
Blimey! I disappear for a few hours to play with some horses and look what you lot get up to Tsssk, I dunno , the "grown-ups" of today...lol ;D ;D ;D G'night all, Derek
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 19, 2007 0:25:28 GMT 1
Who's Patrick Swayzee? And that's a very nice pair of bums ;D Four very acceptable hillocks for the farm eh?
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 19, 2007 1:25:28 GMT 1
Blimey! I disappear for a few hours to play with some horses and look what you lot get up to Tsssk, I dunno , the "grown-ups" of today...lol ;D ;D ;D Pfff.. I know Derek, I'm just as shocked! Gingerloon started talking about always talking about bums and then Janet started posting Froggy bums all over the place and I don't even want to mention that EMW young lady... she smiles too much methinks, something shifty about that... and then Gingerloon wants to put a bag over poor Patrick Swayze's head wait until Pony pit hears about that! Poor Sue is confused and doesn't know who Patrick even is and poor Dax's thread has been hijacked by all these women talking about bums! I am shocked..... I don't know what to say.. ... or have I said too much CT is leaving the building....
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dax
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Post by dax on Jun 19, 2007 1:30:34 GMT 1
maybe we need more pictures to compare?? anyone with me on that...?;p
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