bryn
Elementary Poster
Posts: 55
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Post by bryn on May 15, 2006 11:33:14 GMT 1
Yes, we went, we saw, we enjoyed etc etc. This thread has been very interesting to read, so many diverse opinions. Yes, the spectators can be enthusiastic, but as I was there for the full show there are points in some of the threads a little over-exaggerated. "Cameo" there was no whooping whatsoever when the horse was loose in the ring. The stewards immediately and effectively cleared the ring, the horse became calmer and was caught. It is clear that perhaps you have not witnessed this type of showing scene, but please lets not be narrow minded, as long as there's no abuse, and lets face it none of these horses would 'show' in such a flamboyant manner if they were frightened or forced into it...horses by nature would clamp their tails, dig their feet in, and have to be dragged round. (and by the way, I'm not so naive as to believe abuse doesn't occur - it does, but Arab showing is fairly and strictly controlled by Disciplinary Officers, something I have not experienced with any other breed! Oh yes, abuse does occur, but there are no bad horses only bad owners!, and that occurs in every breed!
Having experienced many shows over many,(not saying how many!!!) years, and not exclusive to Arabs, I and my horses have experienced, brass bands, fairground rides, decorated shire horses, huntsmen and hounds, helicopters, hot air balloons, cannon firing, sirens, mast climbing, the sailors hornpipe thing! and hawks flying and landing at my Novice Mares (feet) on this occasion! at shows in and around the country. (Usually directly adjacent to or even in the same ring). I am quite surprised that no-one else goes to these same shows, or notices these hazards and NOISES! but seemingly, can only pass comment about Arab showing or are we blind or too righteous to see these things happening elsewhere. 'The Royal Welsh for example! 'Banging, Clapping, Cheering...whistling! Fancy that...and all to make the horse trot! am I missing something? or are you?
Having had one of my Arabs take part in one of the most memorable events at HOYS, the Final Parade of Champions...I must say this, he stood rock solid, as did the Lead-Rein, First Ridden & Pony Club Ponies, whilst all others, (Dressage Team, Show-Jumpers, Hacks, Hunters etc,) pirouetted, pranced, bucked, leaped about, unseated their riders. Noise, cheering, clapping..."It was ALL for Him" "He knew it" - he loved it - he soaked up every minute and was totally un-phased, Clapping, Cheering, Banging, Music - Bring it on!
Noise training is essential, I'm sure most will agree, a startled horse can be a dangerous horse! I know we, (the Arab lot), can be enthusiastic...but we are not alone. At major shows, HOYS included we can expect, cheering, whistling, whooping, banging, air-horns, flashing lights, smoke machines, lasers. (No-one complained about The Horseguards...WOW!) or police horses jumping through fire!
If you want silence and no atmosphere...stay at home! Or open your eyes and ears...accept it for what it is...some people like it, some people don't. I have owned horses and ponies of various types and breeds, for more years than I would care to mention, and by far I have never owned a horse that comes remotely close to the Arabian. IMO, I usually find that people who 'criticize' have usually little knowledge about the breed, either because they have never actually owned one, or do not understand the intelligence, versatility not to mention flamboyance this breed of horse offers.
'Nuff Said! Bryn
p.s. Bank-Holiday Monday: Horsebox and on-board stallion - Got led down the road by a Brass-Band complete with an over-enthusiastic base-drum thumper!!! and tribe/merry gang of 'Vikings' accompanied by Police...(could only happen in Wigan!). To say the 'Wagon was Rockin' was an understatement...my boy thought it was his entrance 'to the ring - parade' - honest - you just had to be there! The look on the policeman's face when he realised there was a real life horse in the back of this truck just wanting to join in!
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Post by specialsparkle3 on May 15, 2006 12:16:19 GMT 1
Bryn, I completely agree that horses should be used to noise and low flying objects etc at shows. I too have met everything from camels to helicopters landing in the next ring to parachutists landing among a 12.2 SP class. THAT was never my point. My distaste at currant Arab showing is the way it's done, with horses trotting on the end of a long rein, Quarters turned into the ring, head out towards the handler, legs flying in every direction, completely out of balance. Then the way they are made to stand----heads in the air, back hollowed ,hind legs stretched out soooo unattractive. A good Arab is a beautiful creature, so why should they now made to look like uncontrollable uncoordinated puppets.
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bryn
Elementary Poster
Posts: 55
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Post by bryn on May 15, 2006 18:37:32 GMT 1
Specialsparkle, I take your point...but each to their own! Fads and Fashion change...THANKFULLY! sometime for better sometime for worse. Arabs are undeniably beautiful and versatile horses which can compete successfully in ALL disciplines, but I also remember in the not too distant past, Welsh Ponies and Cobs stood stretched out, dippy backed, some resembling rocking horses without rockers ... fortunately the fashion changed!!!!! (for the better I must add IMO).
There are so many contraversial opinions on Arab In-Hand Showing, relating to noise, bag waving, tree shaking!!!! rattle clanking, swinging from the girders, etc, etc, etc, it will inevitably change in the manner of time I don't doubt. In the meantime, I enjoy my horses, they are all shown with consideration and kindness, I choose my handlers very carefully on their ability and empathy with the horse, not on their 'prima donna' fly fishing whips, yanking chains, jumping up and down, contortionistic hands waving in the air, theatrical, dramatic or the like...there are some that make me cringe but in the majority there are many, many exceptional handlers (both professional and amateur) that know and demonstrate how to show a horse to the best advantage, whatever their breed. Sadly one or two do the damage and ruins a reputation, but so many more of us, respect the breed, enjoy showing, have the presence of mind to know our horses and resent them all being tarred with 'uncontrollable, un-co-ordinated puppet' tags for the sake of the minority.
I must also mention that many of these handlers are only given the horse at the collecting ring gate to do the best they can without any prior work or training. You can tell the horses that are well handled and trained, but obviously there are exceptions and everyone benefits from the opinions of others, which is why this topic has been highlighted on a major arab forum...we'll have to see if it makes any difference in the long term. As for the NOISE we'll just have to leave that to the DC's and Stewards or lock out the spectators!
Here's to better showing and better understanding...whatever the breed!
Bryn
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Post by Cameo on May 15, 2006 19:36:04 GMT 1
Hullo Bryn - I think you may have misunderstood my original post - I didn't say there was whooping when the horse was loose - I said that there was whooping as it came into the ring - it was certainly deathly hush when he was loose.
I wasn't asking for silence either ( perhaps you didn't mean me!) I was just expressing my surprise at the whooping! I have been to many shows and know there is a lot of noise - often in quite the wrong place and at the wrong time - it was just the behaviour of the crowd for every horse I was surprised at. Of course there is is noise when someone wins. I agree that Noise training is essential too.
My opinion is simply that of someone who hasn't been top an Arab only show before (I was there for another reason as I stated) and was surprised at what I saw - AND heard from the Collecting ring Stewards and the responses of the people stood beside me. Definitely each to their own - but a fresh eye (and mine wasn't the only one) was somewhat taken aback at the crowd behaviour! No exaggeration - just opinions at what we saw and heard!
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bryn
Elementary Poster
Posts: 55
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Post by bryn on May 16, 2006 1:20:56 GMT 1
I may well have 'misinterpreted' your intended comments on the so called 'whooping' of the crowd when the horse bolted, but I, amongst others, get heartily sick of hearing criticisms of our horses ... oh and by the way we, (Arab owners) are not unique in our different approach to showing and equestrian activities, also mentioned in my previous post, and yes I can agree that it is not everybodys choice and the majority of our horses can go out there in the real world, compete successfully, and then what do we get...OMG Its an Arab! Can you believe it! Must be a fluke! Yes believe it...because if you've never had one, you cannot possibly appreciate the abilities these horses have. Have an open mind! I have seen some very strange activities when 'new' initiatives are introduced, I have also seen some horrendous 'training' methods carried out 'in the name of developing the equestrian sport' some public, some behind closed doors, none acceptable but definitely far more damaging than clapping, cheering and whooping in enthusiastic appreciation.
It is good that you comment and you have certainly led some other interesting opinions, and we are all entitled to our opinions, but please give credit where credit is due, yes there was clapping and cheering, yes it was enthusiastic, so is HOYS, Olympia, Pony Club Games (their supporters are renown for lifting the roof, cheering for their teams, each and every one of them), Barrel Racing, Ponies (UK) (The evening performance is spectacular - and different). Some people like it - some don't - just 'cos its different doesn't necessarily mean its wrong, and as said previously Fads, Fashions & Rules change.
And if you think the show at Myerscough was loud...as you say you've never experienced anything like it, believe me that was quite mild in comparison with others...not all of which are Arab shows.
Get out there...live a little...take it in your stride...enjoy yourself...enjoy your horses!
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Post by rosiesmumof4 on May 16, 2006 10:31:34 GMT 1
Bryn I think you underestimate just how experienced Cameo is. Sample quote from Jane Bartle to the then chief instructor at Yorkshire riding centre about Cameo *yes, she does have a good seat, best of this lot* This was in a stage 4 ride (ie all training to be II, having done their AI's, I was in the ride and used to seriously fancy my riding :-0 ). Just because she hasn't been to a large arab show before does not by definition mean that she doens't get out there, live a litle and enjoy herself.
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Post by Cameo on May 16, 2006 15:27:51 GMT 1
Ha ha! You should see me now RMO4! (Hide with serious emabrassment!) Bryn - I think we might have cross-posted! I'm not criticising Arabs at all - I do like them very much indeed(which is one reason why I booked our workshop on that day - in order to draw them! If I had the money I'd have one along side an Andalusian! My own mare is a PBA) All I am saying is my surprise at the whooping, and the folk's response beside me to the Collecting Ring stewards. I do go to shows - but these days it tends to be from a different perspective (Blenheim/Blair Castle on a trade stand/ local agricultural shows/ County Shows/ the very occasional HOYS - although I am a bit out of touch due to having babies and earning a living! Thereore - no spare time nor cash!) I'm sure the horses wouldn't "show" if they were truly scared - but flight mode is still flight mode however we want to view it (I'm not saying they all were of course - the curse of the typed word!) but I can't deny what I saw - although I accept that each person's view is dependent upon their own personal baggage. And I'm not criticising - simply expressing my surprise - didn't realise it was like that and haven't seen that at any other show (although I have seen a huge amount of other things at other shows - different thread altogether! And I'm well aware of what goes on "behind the scenes" in many aspects of the horse world - tales to make your toes curl!) I'll find some more pictures - there were some beautfiul horses there - I hope to do some paintings from some of the photos...
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Post by Cameo on May 16, 2006 20:39:24 GMT 1
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Post by plonker on May 17, 2006 13:32:25 GMT 1
Good god!!
Look at the lenghth of that whip, it looks ridiculous!!
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Post by specialsparkle3 on May 18, 2006 8:20:33 GMT 1
My point exactly, thanks Cameo
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An objective person
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Post by An objective person on May 18, 2006 11:31:44 GMT 1
Please put some others up Cameo that do not show a horse trotting like that because there will be some , please show both sides of the coin. That's only fair on all the other people who train the horses with care and understanding , who might not win but who put in hours with the animals they love.
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Post by Masked Raider on May 18, 2006 13:03:11 GMT 1
I was at that show, too. I have a number of questions/points to raise.....: 1) Cameo - very interesting to see what an 'outsider' sees. Thank you for being so honest. So few non-arab scene people go that I hope people sit up and take notice of your viewpoints. 2) 'Becky' said her Father is/was the Chairman and she won her class. Is this allowed? Or am I mixing it up with being related to the Judges? Apologies if so, but it did make me take notice. 3) The lovely Azal came into the ring and did a mega gallop in the costume class with the audience cheering madly at the beautiful sight, his girth was very loose and the saddle slipped on the bend. The rider came off heavily. The horse panicked as his saddle was under his belly and the stirrups were banging him. He did about 10 laps halfway around the ring, then he went in smaller and smaller circles for another 4 or 5 mins until he ran to the barrier, whereupon he was caught by bystanders. The crowd were silent whilst he was loose as Cameo stated. In fact, most of us had our hearts in our mouths with nothing but sympathy for the rider - she was totally 'out of it' worrying about her horse, as any of us would. 4) Compared to many, it was a fairly quiet affair, and it was nice to see the DC's actively telling people to 'shut up' for a change. The usual suspect for most of the stoopid noises was also told off and complained on another site that she was treated unfairly. I think not. I saw it. One of the top handlers, Rod Jones, was actively seen gesturing for people to keep the noise down when he showed his horse (mega horse, too.....) as he often does. Sensible lad! 5) I like noise, it adds to the atmosphere! What I dont like is the brash whooping, bag shaking, stones in bottles. It is so demeaning to the breed and some idiots think its the way to go and will make them more 'fashionable and liked'. Maybe they should join the circus? I don't like it in any sort of showing at all. 6) That anyone with any sense would not subject a novice horse, young horse or foal to an indoor show where the noise can carry and rebound across the walls. There are plenty of outdoor ones where most of the sounds get 'washed' away a bit on the wind etc and is not so intense. 7) Vody was not traumatised, he is vet checked before and after every show as his owner worries about him so much. He is the best moving horse we have in the UK, a true superstar who was born to perform and loves his job. He is not happy left at home if there is a show on! 8) The Judges. I was sat behind them both days. They had such a difference in marks that they were laughing and joking at each others scores - not very professional. 9) Was I showing a horse there? Not on your nelly - I wouldn't take them to an indoor one again if it was free! It traumatised me! ;D 10) They myth of keeping show trained Arabs is that they live in over the showing period, with maybe a couple of half days in the paddock if they are lucky. Or maybe a full day out on their day off. I have no problem with this, many horses are kept this way, but I do have a problem with the habit of stuffing them with hard feed and reducing hay to avoid the hay belly. 11) There were horses on the day that trotted without breaking. They didn't win anything that I saw unless in a veteran class or similar. 12) there were a number of Imports - I was unable to see one without serious leg flaws sadly. They all did well. 13) the 5 horses I marked in my catalogue with the best conformation, movement and type were not even placed. They were the only ones I would be interested in if I were buying. ;D 14) Crabbet Classes - these are a fairly new initative. The rules state they are shown in the 'old fashioned way' at the shows they are on at. How bl**dy refreshing! No, there was not one at this show, but there were a few nice Crabbet horses over the weekend, sadly being placed below the wonky legged imports. 15) The photographs further back on this thread really do show how silly it has all become!! And yes, mine are all showtrained...it took this to really point it out to me. Seeing it from a different perspective. So love it or hate it, it's how it is.
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Post by Karon nli on May 18, 2006 14:02:58 GMT 1
Your points 11 12 and 13 are the saddest ones The best movers don't get placed - sadly this has been common for quite some time with many judges. Leg flaws on placed horses - again, that's been happening for a while. And the best made horses not getting placed - I'd be surprised if they were, these days And, again, if people who don't know the breed other than in the show ring see this they are not impressed. Us Arab owners can say what we like about the breed as riding horse - individually we just get told our Arab(s) are the exception, as a group we get told we protest too much so we can't win. Your comment about the noise is a good one - some spectators go well over the top. Strangely the Jones clan were very bad offenders in this at one show I went to, even after stewards told them to shut up on many occasions, so it's interesting that Rhodri now gets people to calm down. Cheering and generally being enthusiastic is one thing, bag waving and banging the sides of the arena quite unacceptable. I like the idea of the Crabbet classes It's a shame that the Crabbet ones weren't placed as high as the "wonky legged" Arabs. Bryn - again it's unfortunate that the "prima donna" handlers often end up showing the winners while the quieter handlers get on with it, show horses that will produce a hoof-perfect show and don't get noticed because of the showman antics of others. A horse messing around at the end of the lead rein is more immediately noticeable than one doing a perfect trot round but I know which I'd rather have as a riding horse and we should remember that is what they are supposed to be. With some of the comments on here it seems as if some people are out to rpoduce the perfect show horse and forget that Arabs are for riding!
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kooky
Intermediate Poster
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Post by kooky on May 18, 2006 14:46:48 GMT 1
Ahhh, but karon...the 'perfect show horse' should also be able to be a good ridden horse....
I forgot to say that I haven't seen a stallion that has really stood out for me for a while, but to see some of the 'old in-handers' doing well in the ridden classes the last few years is nice to see (not old as in age, but been on the scene for a while) I am having a re-think this year as I can't consider them if they are incapable of 'doing a job'. Ruger is a good one to mention, lovely kind, nice horse overall but one i always considered a 'bauble' before the show! Wow, I had a proper look at him for the first time and like what I see!
Can anyone imagine this scenario....let us say, for example, that a novice owner/handler enters the imaginary ring with, say, Carmargue. Would he really get placed? Would he beat the imports that people are having to buy to keep up with how it is all going? Food for thought.
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kooky
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 181
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Post by kooky on May 18, 2006 14:48:11 GMT 1
Forgot to say, my friend shows them and I love watching! Sorry to butt in.......but i really would like to use an Arab on my TB mare!
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