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Post by Karon on May 12, 2006 13:28:37 GMT 1
It's so true that non-Arab people base their ideas of Arabs on what they see in the show ring - or on pics they see of the big Arab shows, with horses posed to extremes and looking totally unrideable. Then we get comments like "no wonder a lot of Arabs are barking" and no matter how sane our Arabs are it's the extreme that gets remembered. Or we get told our sane Arabs are exceptional, and not normal - we can't win. It's a pleasure to see the (very few, now) handlers who don't interfere with their horses, who let them show themselves off without needing outside assistance and whose horses aren't scared of them, either. Unfortunately, for me Arab showing has gone too far now and the ones with scared horses, and who attract the noisy, bag-waving, shouting contingent have put me off going to watch. Fair enough, clap a well known horse or a really well done show, but it really is not doing the breed justice to non-Arab people to have them wound up all the time they are in the ring. I've been known to make not-very-quiet-or-subtle comments about the shouting that goes on if I'm by someone doing it, which usually gets met with a silence from the cuplrits It seems to be mainly the newer breeders who encourage the shouting etc - this is particularly bad as they are supposed to be the future of the breed.
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Post by guest for today on May 12, 2006 14:28:16 GMT 1
I have read this thread with a great deal of interest, interesting. First point is that, just because you dont like the way something is done why oh why do you IH lot come down on people like a ton of bricks??, you can sometimes be really sanctamoious. Second point, these horses are kept in the laps of luxury, with their well being, paramount unlike some of you IH lot, who keep horses outside in all conditions, complain about lack of condition because the paddacks are bare and you want to feed natural as nature intended. You moan about the behavour of your horses when to be honest they sound like spoilt little monsters who do not know the perameters of good manors, when its not NH they need but a good telling off. Third point, I show and I have shown arabs we do it our way, you do it yours, we do not decry what you do and remember people that live in glass houses should not throw stones. Fourth point, this DG is getting its self a bad name in the equine world because of the self rightous comments of some of its members. (I did use the word some) Finally I know that you will ask for this comment to be taken off because you dont like it and it will prove what I have just said. Each to there own!!!!!
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Post by specialsparkle3 on May 12, 2006 16:23:52 GMT 1
Guest , you really shouldn't judge a DG by one thread. I say this because you obviously haven't read much else or you would know that there are a lot of people on here who breed and show at county level, every breed from TBs Arabs , Show Hacks, Show Ponies, Show Cobs, etc to M&Ms.---some of them, much longer than you, by the tone of your post. I learned to ride on Crabbet bred Arabs in the 50s and showed A A & P Bs in the 70s that I bred, and pure breds for other people, at both the Nat Champs and Northern Champs, and won championships at each. I stand by what I have already written on here about the sad loss of Arab credablity. By the way,all my horses (who are all Wembly winners, or hopefully potential winners) live in the lap of luxury, and I thoroughly enjoy this DG and continue to learn from it. I have not personally heard a bad word about this DG-----but then I haven't met you! and I see no reason why your post should be deleted, as although rather blinkered, it is your opinion. If I sound self righteous, well so be it. but I think you are being very unfair.We always welcome new input and ideas on here, perhaps you'd like to join
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moose
Novice Poster
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Post by moose on May 12, 2006 16:25:27 GMT 1
Hi guest for today Well I can assure you that nobodys horses are more spoilt than mine. They definitely dont live a regimented NH life. In fact I agree that sometimes some people on this board can come across as sanctimonious but hen dont you get that in every area of life? ;D
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Post by kas on May 12, 2006 17:46:09 GMT 1
LOL! "who keep horses outside in all conditions, complain about lack of condition because the paddacks are bare and you want to feed natural as nature intended. You moan about the behavour of your horses when to be honest they sound like spoilt little monsters who do not know the perameters of good manors, when its not NH they need but a good telling off." Nope, none of that applies to me. Mine are fat and happy, and well behaved and I don't moan about their lack of condition or behaviour. They probably think that they are to the "manor" born I must be sanctamoious then, oh well, c'est la vie! Who cares what a few people on other boards think of this one? The active membership and rapid traffic on this board speaks for itself.
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Post by Karon on May 12, 2006 19:56:11 GMT 1
I think Arabs were "designed" to live on not-so-good grazing, weren't they? So my lush field isn't exactly ideal for them and the bare side of the field - where they are grazing - is far more suited to them anyway! Lack of condition? I wish (well, OK, not really but being a bit thinner would be better). Happy - definitely, although I'm sure they'd prefer to be on the lush side of the field! Can't really moan about their behaviour, either. As for being out in all conditions - mine have access to stables but have been known to prefer to be outside in blizzards. Then again they've been brought up to be horses, and are used to being given the chance, to a fair extent, to make decisions about how they live. Natural horse care, maybe, but they don't exactly look as if it's causing them any harm They are also calm and relaxed, more than can be said for many show horses I've seen at "top" yards. Thought this was supposed to be an Intelligent Horsemanship site, anyway, which surely means thinking about the needs of our horses and how we adapt to those needs rather than being blinkered into only seeing what we want?
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Post by jor on May 12, 2006 20:03:40 GMT 1
rofl, shows you how damaging steryotypes are, doesnt it. The fact that 'guest' seems to think that horses living inside is preferable to living outside is amusing. My horses live out 24/7 they are all, always in good condition, if my grass is lacking they get haylage, and lots of it. I have a nutritionalist who I talk to about feeds, my horses are supplementary fed whenever required though I prefer to stick to quality balancers and avoid 'hard' feeds wherever possible. My soil, haylage and grass are analysed to check for deficiencies. I have no problems with any of my horses behaviour either, none ever need 'a good telling off' (what is one of those anyway?) The fact is a lot of people 'find' this board when they have a problem with thier horse and they ask advise, those here always offer our experience and suggestions, usually backing up with 'problem' horses we have had and helped, also its useful to read through the 'update' threads which are posted to see how people progress with these horses they are struggling with, so many inmprove so quickly, is amazing and congratulations go to the owners who realise there is another way as apposed to 'telling off' a horse with a whip/hand or anythign else. I think every single person who is follwing a more natural lifestyle for thier horses has the horses well being at the foremost of thier mind. You can never, ever convince me that keeping a horse in a stable 24/7 all winter with 6 rugs on, stuffing him full of high starch high sugar feed is better than him being out with one rug on being fed a forage based diet with a quality feed balancer....there is so much evidence showing that horses benefit from as much daily turnout as possible, living in herd environments and eating a forage based diet. I go with scientific evidence not humanising a horse thinking they will like to be inside when its cold on a nice straw bed with a bucketful of stud mix or whatever. With responses like that its no wonder non-arab people think arab people are pretenious, arrogant and that arabs are wild, unrideable beats.
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Post by jor on May 12, 2006 20:06:18 GMT 1
maybe I should also add that there are many of us who do have show ponies/ M&Ms etc which all show at county level. Personally I have been out of showing for a few years due to having a child but Im looking forward to my first outing at the end of this month with a rather nice RP filly....who has been produced out of the field and lived out 24/7 all winter....
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Post by Karon on May 12, 2006 20:32:21 GMT 1
I meant to add (before a customer came in - that'll teach me to do this at work!) that I do know people who show at county level whose ponies live out either 24/7 or come in for a day or two (at night only) just before a big show. No need for the "life of luxury" mentioned by Guest, just very healthy, well produced show ponies and natives. I've also seen the end result of horses being kept in a human's idea of luxury, and getting a good telling off instead of consistent training. Not pretty, and in one case resulted in a very good horse being totally ruined when all he needed was some intelligent handling and care.
The last time I spoke to a well known, older breeder (who does still show) she was unhappy about the way Arab showing is going and was thinking about stopping showing altogether because she doesn't want her horses to be subjected to what goes on at some shows. To me that speaks volumes.
Hey Jo, do you think me and thee are sanctimonious as well, then?!
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Post by jor on May 12, 2006 20:37:32 GMT 1
most likely Karon! The person who I used to work for with arabs has more recently given up showing altogether. He still breeds but refuses to show because of the way arab showing is headed....that speaks volumes to me too. I mean if all the older breeders who have bred for 30+ years leave the circuit I can only assume that this extreme way of showing will continue and possibly get worse. How sad for such a wonderful breed.
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Post by Cameo on May 12, 2006 20:46:45 GMT 1
Hullo guest - welcome! In my original post, I wasn't coming down on anyone like a ton of bricks I feel - just rather surprised at what I saw! Shows my Arab Show Naivety I guess. Haven't seen it anywhere else in the hose show world - although I hear Arab Racing isn't dissimilar! Your second point is rather a generalization now isn't it!! Everyone - bare paddocks, out side!? As nature intended (not quite sure why Nature's methods are to be so decried!!)? Do you believe that horses should be kept inside all the time may I ask? Out of interest? ;)Perhaps you aren't aware of the studies on stereotypies - the behaviour caused by animals kept in confined spaces (be they tigers or horses). Cooper et al (1999) found that weaving (a stereotypie) was reduced by widening the horse's horizons - in practice this was achieved by giving the horse more windows. Mc Greevy (1999?) found that 6.8kg or less of forage given to a horse each day, reduced bedding and minimal contact between boxes all increased stereotypies. Nicol (1999 - obviously a good year!) says there is some evidence that restricted forage (feeding say twice a day for a stabled horse) results in gastric ulceration. (Source - the Senior Lecturer in Animal Welfare at the APU Cambridge.at the Equine Behaviour Scientific Symposium, Northallerton, 2006) There is a department of Animal Welfare at the APU in Cambridge - animal welfare is becoming an issue that many many people recognise as important - and this includes the ethical management of equines. When people talk about their horse's behaviour on here - my feeling is that they are asking for help to improve the behaviour - and therefore recognise their responsibility in changing undesirable behaviour..., Perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining what is meant by "a good telling off"? Violence? Shouting? Perhaps that is how you were taught. The "Intelligent Horsemanship way" is that you don' t need to shout, or hit and you can still have a respectful and obedient horse. I'm sure there are aspects of non-Arab showing that you don't agree with - if the welfare of the horse is in question with some of these practices - do you still remain silent? As I understand it - comments are removed by the moderators is they are offensive or slanderous etc - as well as not in the spirit of the DG - there is nothing wrong with a good debate!! Loved your story specialsparkle - I have plenty of photos of that stick and horse's noses!!
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kofihorse
Grand Prix Poster
Oh,such a perfect day, I'm glad I spent it with you
Posts: 1,454
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Post by kofihorse on May 13, 2006 19:48:00 GMT 1
The County Show today - if anyone wanted to see beautiful, sensible ridden and in-hand Arabs,they were there today!! There was only one being teased with a schooling whip and much good it did his handler, who had also made a "late entrance" LOL - they were waaaay down the line.
I wish I could find my schedule to tell you the name of the ridden winner - he was utterly gorgeous and looked like a fantastic ride.
Modesty forbids me from telling you who was second in the in-hand class.........................ROFL
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Post by specialsparkle3 on May 13, 2006 19:54:50 GMT 1
Hooray K.F. Well Done ;D ---What show was it and who was that horse or rider???
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kofihorse
Grand Prix Poster
Oh,such a perfect day, I'm glad I spent it with you
Posts: 1,454
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Post by kofihorse on May 13, 2006 20:22:33 GMT 1
Can't find my schedule for the names, sparkle - I think my friend has gone home with it. All I can tell you is that the male in-hand winner was a son of Psynergy and the second place went to my new boy, MAS Khan El Ajuz! Third in-hand was Silver Niat, who was second in the ridden as well. The ridden winner was another beautiful grey. It was Ayr County Show.
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heidi
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 3,490
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Post by heidi on May 13, 2006 23:31:19 GMT 1
Brilliant news! Well done Kofihorse and Khan!
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