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Post by mags on Dec 15, 2006 21:58:11 GMT 1
wouldnt the alfalfa effect his magnesium levels though..not good for lammi
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Post by fin on Dec 15, 2006 22:11:30 GMT 1
Yup, its very high in calcium so if that's not balanced to magnesium in the right ratio, it can affect mag absorption. Sugar beet's the same too although oddly he was fine on Luciestalks and even Greengold and Luciebix--just not lucienuts. Short chop = quickly digested and all sorts of minerals whizzing around in the bloodstream I suppose. It's got to be a mineral imbalance problem with him--keeping him sound is such a fine balancing act. He was a lot lighter on his feet this evening, even though I was a soft touch and let him have a carrot because he was convinced he was dying of starvation whie I mixed his feed up
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rosie
Grand Prix Poster
stroppy mare
Posts: 1,153
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Post by rosie on Dec 15, 2006 22:27:23 GMT 1
Interesting thread. I started my mare on Top Spec anti lam about 10 weeks ago. She is a good doer and I had previously used Baileys lo cal but after reading good reports of top spec decided to switch. After about 6 weeks being on the top spec, I started having a few problems, usually when riding. She was being really spooky and silly really, not her normal self. She was also really full of energy, trying to run off etc. AFter posting on here, I then started mag ox which shes been on about 3 weeks, but I havent ridden for 2 weeks due to weather, so I cant say if its any better yet !
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Post by sarak on Dec 15, 2006 23:26:06 GMT 1
Sara, I think it's possible that a horse that feels very well and lively because they're taking in lots of nutrients, might well be sharper, because they're more alert and chirpy. I could live with that (I'd probably fall off mind, but that's OK)......it's when they can't turn in a tight circle and try to murder everything within biting distance I'm having a problem with Hi Finn - my comments were more in response to other DGers on this thread saying they had experienced a marked change in behaviour when changing over to Top Spec. I had Jo on very high energy feeds when I first got him - conditioning cubes and such like - but he was always sensible to ride. On Top Spec he was a very unpleasant ride - more tense and spooky all the time than feeling well.
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Post by Susan on Dec 16, 2006 0:03:41 GMT 1
Also how about ringing Roger hatch at Trinity Consultants this guy is very very helpful as well.
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kermie
Advanced Poster
Fanatical about Fells
Posts: 339
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Post by kermie on Dec 16, 2006 0:30:23 GMT 1
I would definitely give Nicola a ring - she will probably be very interested to hear about your experience, even if you decide not to go back on the TopSpec.
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Post by Donny on Dec 16, 2006 0:38:32 GMT 1
hi finn, in reply to your original post, i have had almost exactly the same problems.
started feeding topspec balancer about a fortnight ago increasing slowly to the recommended levels for the first week. i previously gave him seaweed for his feet and took him off this at the same time. nothing else in his diet/lifestyle has changed since november the 1st when 24 hour turnout stopped at our yard. grazing has been waterlogged almost since as (the press keeps telling us anyway) we have had almost constant rain for 40 days and nights in central scotland!.
on tuesday i noticed he was a little careful on his front (barefoot) feet whereas previously there was no problem. he has become lame and reluctant to leave his stable, also extremely sore on stoney ground tonight where previously he was sound (could this problem be masked in shod horses). i can find no other cause for him being lame and was about to call the farrier tomorow to check his feet before i read this topic.
i will take him off topspec immediately and let you know the outcome.
cheers donny
finn wrote: Have any of you had problems feeding TopSpec balancer? JJ has been on it about a week or so and has had digital pulses for the last five days Pulses were down today but he's noticeablely sore and lame even on his forefeet. THree weeks ago he was stamping over rocks in his bare feet for the first time ever
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cc
Novice Poster
Posts: 3
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Post by cc on Dec 16, 2006 10:58:01 GMT 1
could you try taking them off it for a week or so to see what pulses are like then, I feed the anti lam and have never had a problem, But everyone is different so could be worth dropping it to see?
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Post by fin on Dec 16, 2006 11:18:10 GMT 1
This is very interesting. I hope we're not putting everybody off TopSpec tho because it's excellent stuff....just obviously not for some horses! Sara, I was watching JJ in his paddock and he was exactly the same--very tense and spooky. THat's hugely out of character for him--he can be a bit awkward in other ways but he's the most bombproof horse I've ever met. And he was certainly angry and aggressive too.....not his usual character at all (he can be very bossy and has been known to discipline people who pss him off, but it's rarely even malicious). Rosie, I was feeding Mag Ox too--still am. Be interesting to see if it makes a difference to your ned because all the sympoms we seem to be having--sore feet, spookiness, aggression--all seem to indicate mag deficiency.... Donny, that's exactly what's happened to JJ too. Keep me posted on what happens now the ned is off the TopSpec--I've noticed a marked improvement in two days, which is a bit gloomy really since I was hoping it wasn't the TS at all Kermie and Susan--yup, I think I will give Top Spec a ring on Monday. Be interesting to see what they say or if they've come across any other horses with this sort of reaction. I was thinking of calling Trinity consultants too, but only after I've got the hay analysis back, so everything else we feed can be balanced to that.... ETA--cc, the pulses had gone completely this morning!
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Post by mags on Dec 16, 2006 15:19:45 GMT 1
Finn have you thought about having him blood tested you you think it's a mineral imbalance
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Post by fin on Dec 16, 2006 17:17:58 GMT 1
Yes, I have. I think it would have to be a muscle biopsy though, since blood levels (particularly with magnesium) can be perfectly normal while intra-cellular ones can be abnormal.... Of course this isn't helped by my vet, whose only advice has been 'shoe him and ride him' and won't listen to ANYTHING that contradicts his theory that all problems in barefoot horses are cured by nailing shoes on......but he's basically an ok bloke and probably would run the tests if we asked him. To be fair, he offered to run all the standard Cushings tests for us, although he thought we were wasting money. I don't know whether even a muscle biopsy would give reliable results though--or whether the vet could interpret them correctly.... JJ seems to be more or less back to normal now, at least psychologically He's moving better but I decided not to walk him out on the road to see what he's like turning on a hard surface--I'll leave that til Monday or TUesday, and let him recover a bit I think
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Post by mandal on Dec 16, 2006 17:29:29 GMT 1
I'm watching this thread with increasing interest Glad he's still improving Finn.
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Post by mags on Dec 16, 2006 19:08:14 GMT 1
Dans magnesium deficency showed up on blood test so you never know. Have you any other vets in your area that may help.
Want does your trimmer think?
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Post by fin on Dec 16, 2006 19:58:08 GMT 1
That's interesting. Might be worth running bloods then if we get the same problem again....which we probably will. Not sure about any of the other vets in the area TBH. Mine's very good so long as you don't mention feet, it's just that all of our problems seem to involve feet I think our EP has pretty much come to the conclusion that JJ has difficulty in absorbing magnesium and is borderline deficient. But we don't know WHY he can't use the magnesium he's taking in.....One of the possible theories is that if we feed JJ something that's high in the minerals that block calcium absorbtion, then he becomes deficient very rapidly because he doesn't have reserves of magnesium to fall back on. Despite the Mag Ox, all the symptoms he's suffered this week are classic Mag deficiency ones--panic, hysteria, aggression, tension, muscle stiffness and footiness..... Poor ned
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Post by taklishim on Dec 16, 2006 19:59:13 GMT 1
I think this is such a nightmare as just about every horse is proving to be different and it seems very much a case of experiment and trail and error. The only thing that I have learnt is that it is not OK to mask the footiness with shoes or to do nothing. Been there, done that and had to have the horse PTS eventually. I (not advertising Top spec here) have managed to stabilise my horse so far on top spec balancer, mag ox 30ml per day, speedibeet, 15 ml salt per day, yea sac and soaked hay (definitely no grass) and top spec cool/conditioning cubes. For mine the final part of the solution, so far, was the yea sac. When I first started (last Feb) I increased the top spec balancer from half to a full dose and saw immediate improvement. I have no reason to suspect the balancer (but would quickly stop it if I became suspicious) His only greenery is gorse (which he is mad for ;D)
Finn, what happens if you forget the minerals and protein and just give well soaked hay, yea sac and a normal dose of magox? can you stabilise him then?
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