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Post by clipclop on Nov 9, 2014 17:26:50 GMT 1
especially as I have heard Dr Green suggested by many vets in these cases. The difficulty for vets is that they can only go by what they see right in front of them and what they are told by the owner/carer of the horse. All too often, impactions are caused by the fact the owner hasn't provided enough forage or that they don't turn up until lunchtime to turn out so the horse is eating dirty straw all morning as it has probably been without hay for 8hrs plus. Or spasmodic because when they do finally turn up at lunchtime, they give a cereal feed then ride straight away. In these cases, the horse is far more likely to recover without relapse if turned out on a decent amount of grass. Only the other day on facebook I saw someone post on a group asking for suggestions for a veteran supplement as their horse seemed 'off colour'. Numerous people said get the vet to check it over/run bloods and some asked if there were any sycamore trees close by to which the response was 'I know about mycotoxins and there are no sycamore trees near'. It was interesting as someone on livery at the same yard then posted to state that the tree by the gate to the field the horse was in was indeed a sycamore! I do not know of the developments but it's just an example of what happens regularly. We shouldn't have to diagnose our own horses as after all, that's what we pay vets for but the more knowledge we can arm ourselves with and work together with vets to learn about conditions which are sadly becoming more common then the better the chances of recovery will be. Ultimately though, as most equine veterinary research in the UK is funded by the racing industry, until this issue affects racers, I fear research won't be extensive enough. Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by ba on Nov 9, 2014 23:37:35 GMT 1
I have been looking into where I can buy Mycosorb from and even google shopping comes up blank. How is this purchased?
I wanted to be pro-active, if it's not ulcers than this is the next logical step, can my vet order it for me?
Also, just to be clear would those of you who have horses with problems from mycotoxins mind listing me the presenting symptoms?
My boys symptoms are: 1) recurrent colic - 4 times in a year, 2 admissions to vets 2) general discomfort - looks uncomfortable but resolves quickly 3) poor performance, unwillingness to go forward 4) increased spookiness 5) this is subjective but he seems a bit "down in the dumps"
Thanks for helping me, I'm totally confused, worried, at a loss as to what to do for the best.
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Post by taklishim on Nov 10, 2014 9:26:45 GMT 1
pm'd you
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Post by janwilky on Nov 10, 2014 20:52:46 GMT 1
That's one of the articles I've been reading Taklishim, and seems to be one of the best ones . Quite a lot of the horse-related info I've seen is from NZ, they seem to be more aware of the problem over there - and they have a similar climate to us. I'm trying to figure out at the moment whether the species of moulds and endophytic fungi are different over here or whether (having microscopic airborn spores) they are ubiquitous. questions as a biologist JanW, if vets were to mention myco as a potential problem they would have to test and come up with results for it. Is is possible to test an actual horse? would they show up in blood, urine or dung, presumably you cannot go round and take samples of all the vegetation it may have eaten which could be endless in a 10 acre field so how would you establish it and how would you establish which myco or indeed a negative test? about 10 years ago barefoot people were saying to those with footy horses take it off grass for a week and it will problably improve considerably. (not for the same reason as colic) That met with a lot of disbelief and incredulity until people found it worked. So saying to someone with a continually colicy horse take it off the grass but I don't really know why will cause the same reaction especially as I have heard Dr Green suggested by many vets in these cases. Sorry Pat, had a busy few days. From what I can gather, blood tests are available for some mycotoxins but as there are estimated to be around 300 different mycotoxins which can cause illnesses of varying kinds, blood testing may be of limited use. This is from the ryegrass staggers site I linked to on the other thread ( horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/10/ryegrass-staggers-danger-to-horses/#axzz3IOcCDQAa): "While a blood test is available to test for lolitrem levels, veterinarians will usually diagnose ryegrass staggers on the basis of a horse’s behaviour, also taking into account the pasture the animal is on, and any evidence such as dry conditions or other nearby cases that might indicate that mycotoxin levels are high."Forage can be tested for mycotoxins too, but I'm not sure about the practicalities of this. There's lots more reading I'd like to do. I might have a chat with my vet too, she's very progressive and open-minded and she asked me to keep her updated on how my lot are doing even though I decided not to let them scope Lucas for ulcers. Initial indications, after just 4 days on the Mycosorb, are that Lucas is different - even more so than when I treated him for ulcers. We clipped him this afternoon; up until now no-one has ever been able to clip his belly further back than the mid-line. He was always completely cool about the clippers, the noise and the rest of his body and face, but venture to the back half of his belly and he'd start fidgetting, and if you didn't stop he would start to kick up with his hind feet. Not today - he stood there like a lamb with not the slightest flicker of concern for as much as a second. Soft eyes, relaxed expression, not even a twitchy muscle. And when I rode Bambi yesterday she was the most relaxed and free-moving she's been since the summer. I don't know for sure, but my gut feeling so far is the binder is making a difference to all three of them. As to why Mycosorb has disappeared off Progressive Earth's website I have no idea, I can only guess they must have sold out. I'm going to e-mail them and ask about it.
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varkie
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by varkie on Nov 10, 2014 21:43:40 GMT 1
Having just lost two horses to mycotoxins, I have been assured by my vets that there is NO one test that says you do/don't have mycotoxins in your horse. You can only go on symptoms & general tests of the live horse, or post mortem of the dead one, as we did.
You can test plants/feed for mycotoxins, but it's just not easy to do - you are relying on finding the exact area that has the toxins - unless your whole field is infected, it's likely it's just patchy. And again, you need to know what to test for. It's easier if you suspect it's in the hard feed.
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Post by mjcssjw2 on Nov 10, 2014 21:45:23 GMT 1
good grief Varkie that is bad news.
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Post by taklishim on Nov 10, 2014 21:52:35 GMT 1
thank you Jan. Sorry to lumber you with so many questions. Glad to hear you think there may be progress with Lucas. CLipping,WOW! Rupert is very happy on it and I shall carry on. Having read Varkie's story I feel it is too risky not to. Whilst her cases were extreme I think that there must be degrees of toxicity depending on the levels of toxin on the vegetation ranging from mild to disasterous and I worry about what long term exposure could do to the horse.
There are not many sources of Mycosorb a+ on google. Intelligent horsecare seems to be one that has it in stock according to their site. Alltech will supply it direct from their base but it is in 25k bags and sent by carrier. Obviously that is only going to help a stable or some friends who can get together. Please let us know how you get on with Progressive Earth.
ba, any of those could be mycotoxin symptoms. The symptoms appear to be wide ranging. For Rupert it was colic.
Horses with gut problems can move badly, it is uncomfortable for them to move well. Spookiness can be very bad. Going downhill can be another problem for them. You could well be describing an ulcer problem.
With Rupert I thought I was dealing with an ulcer problem, probably a hind gut one. I maybe was but for him it has been what was causing the problem in the first place and it has turned out to be grass especially in October even very small amounts of it.
It was not obvious as to why he should have had a gut problem. He gets very little stress 24/7 ad lib hay or grass. No cereals.In fact he was at the bottom of the candidates for an ulcer list.
Hopefully the vets will be able to rule stomach ulcers in or out.
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Post by portiabuzz on Nov 10, 2014 22:54:44 GMT 1
Would it be advisable to use as precautionary measure.? Just thinking .. am not too up on this so just learning as I go
Sent from my SM-G800F using proboards
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Post by janwilky on Nov 11, 2014 0:45:30 GMT 1
thank you Jan. Sorry to lumber you with so many questions. Glad to hear you think there may be progress with Lucas. CLipping,WOW! Rupert is very happy on it and I shall carry on. Having read Varkie's story I feel it is too risky not to. Whilst her cases were extreme I think that there must be degrees of toxicity depending on the levels of toxin on the vegetation ranging from mild to disasterous and I worry about what long term exposure could do to the horse. There are not many sources of Mycosorb a+ on google. Intelligent horsecare seems to be one that has it in stock according to their site. Alltech will supply it direct from their base but it is in 25k bags and sent by carrier. Obviously that is only going to help a stable or some friends who can get together. Please let us know how you get on with Progressive Earth. ba, any of those could be mycotoxin symptoms. The symptoms appear to be wide ranging. For Rupert it was colic. Horses with gut problems can move badly, it is uncomfortable for them to move well. Spookiness can be very bad. Going downhill can be another problem for them. You could well be describing an ulcer problem. With Rupert I thought I was dealing with an ulcer problem, probably a hind gut one. I maybe was but for him it has been what was causing the problem in the first place and it has turned out to be grass especially in October even very small amounts of it. It was not obvious as to why he should have had a gut problem. He gets very little stress 24/7 ad lib hay or grass. No cereals.In fact he was at the bottom of the candidates for an ulcer list. Hopefully the vets will be able to rule stomach ulcers in or out. Don't be sorry, we're all trying to learn and (hopefully) do what we can to protect our horses. The lady who came to clip mine today has heard of lots of colics recently and has had a letter from her vet about it, warning clients to be vigilant. Degrees of toxicity... yes, I'm now wondering whether that's what I've been dealing with for five years in an insidious, chronic manner. Behaviour problems (that are not caused - or resolved - by training or lack of it). Probable ulcers but symptoms always worse in autumn and early winter (Oct to Dec). Intermittently lame on the RH and moving tensely and clumsily, almost unco-ordinated at times. Explosive and really quite extreme difficulty walking downhill - but only sometimes. Not generally spooky, but if something bothers him sufficiently he flips and goes BANG in the most dangerous manner. He has been much, much better this year since treating the ulcers, but there was still a change in October: grumpy, pinned ears when asked to do something, especially on a circle and also when I put a saddle on him (without a rider). Impatient/easily frustrated. That horrible feeling that if I pushed him he'd explode. I've had a hunch for a while that it has something to do with the grass but I didn't think it was sugars. If he has too much spring grass he gets fat, and his feet deteriorate a bit. But it doesn't affect his behaviour and he doesn't get silly or grumpy or explosive. All this 'stuff' is 90% autumn/early winter then he improves and by spring he is much, much better. Touch wood, he felt absolutely normal and sweet today, so I really think the Mycosorb may be helping. PB in answer to your question I honestly don't know. As Varkie rightly says, acute toxicity like she unfortunately had to deal with is rare, but it seems that mycotoxin problems at some level may be widespread. The only thing I can say is feeding a binder such as Mycosorb is inexpensive in the scheme of things and might not be a bad idea for a few weeks in the autumn and when we are hearing so many reports of horses having difficulties. If they're not needed they will just pass through the gut without causing any harm, and they don't have an adverse effect on the absorption of minerals or other nutrients.
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Post by portiabuzz on Nov 11, 2014 1:14:02 GMT 1
Thanks for that. So hard not to worry ..
Sent from my SM-G800F using proboards
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Post by ba on Nov 13, 2014 23:30:39 GMT 1
My boy had his endoscopy today, he doesn't have stomach ulcers and has a text book healthy stomach. I'll be honest, I was a little disappointed, I was hoping for a diagnosis today. We are sumising that the problem lies in his hind gut. I have been advised that due to his breed, shape, skin thickness that both an X-Ray and Ultrasound will be difficult to get results from. A rectal biopsy is an option but wil only show changes in the later part of the bowel.
So........I have been advised to monitor, test his poo for sand for the next 10 days, bring back into work and try a course of Succeed. Had anyone used Succeed?
I have also ordered some Mycosorb A+.
The possibilities are: Mycotoxins Sand in the hind gut Low motility Gas build up - could be caused by low motility Intestinal inflammation/colitis Or I just have a sensitive colicky horse!
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Post by taklishim on Nov 14, 2014 9:33:07 GMT 1
My boy had his endoscopy today, he doesn't have stomach ulcers and has a text book healthy stomach. I'll be honest, I was a little disappointed, I was hoping for a diagnosis today. We are sumising that the problem lies in his hind gut. I have been advised that due to his breed, shape, skin thickness that both an X-Ray and Ultrasound will be difficult to get results from. A rectal biopsy is an option but wil only show changes in the later part of the bowel. So........I have been advised to monitor, test his poo for sand for the next 10 days, bring back into work and try a course of Succeed. Had anyone used Succeed? I have also ordered some Mycosorb A+. The possibilities are: Mycotoxins Sand in the hind gut Low motility Gas build up - could be caused by low motility Intestinal inflammation/colitis Or I just have a sensitive colicky horse! this is an exact parallel of Rupert. He wasn't scoped as although I was itching to pay for it to be done the vet clinic thought it unlikely. I have spent a year on a very extensive regime on Rupert dealing with this as a hind gut problem ie ulcers or acidosis and it has worked to a large extent but I have never got to the cause of the problem. Ru has been on mycosorb a+ for nearly 2 weeks and is different. Rowan has also been on the same regime as he had more or less the same problem. I suspect my grass has a mycotoxin problem in some fields. If I had to do this again I would start with mycosorb on it's own. If you do everything at once you won't know what has worked. If you could get the horse completely off the grass for a week then I suspect you would have a definite answer it was the grass but that may not be possible for you. I considered suceed but used equishure. I found it worked for both. Some people have had success with succeed but you are only treating the symptoms not the cause. Rupert after 2 weeks is still on a high loading dose of mycosorb and in view of his problems and potentially my grass problems I intend to keep him on that dose until after the spring (in theory anyway) hope some of this helps.
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Post by ba on Nov 14, 2014 14:22:32 GMT 1
Thank you, yes thats really really helpful. Sorry to ask so many questions but what dosage of Mycosorb do you feed? Are dosage instructions on the tub? I'm finding it very difficult to find out a lot about it. I want to make sure I've ordered enough.
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Post by taklishim on Nov 14, 2014 15:20:32 GMT 1
Thank you, yes thats really really helpful. Sorry to ask so many questions but what dosage of Mycosorb do you feed? Are dosage instructions on the tub? I'm finding it very difficult to find out a lot about it. I want to make sure I've ordered enough. Start at 20gms/hd and drop to 10gms/hd after 10 days. These are the instructions from Alltech for 500kg. If you ordered if from the intelligent horsecare link I sent you then they include a 10ml scoop in it. A level 10ml scoop is 10gms so simply 2 sccops a day. I am going to carry on with a good 20g per day whilst the potential for mycotox. conditions continue. Rupert was iffy about the mycosorb so I mixed it with a bit of molasses. He is a real old woman. The rest had no problem and licked the buckets clean immediately. You may find that you have to offer further support to the gut. Each horse is an individual and what works for one doesn't for another. For mine it is equishure, bicarb and charcoal. Others will have had success with other items. Feedwise (if you feed) copra and soaked alfalfa nuts seem to soothe the gut best plus micronised linseed. Try not to worm. Wormer really agravated Rupert and pushed him over the edge to being a horse hospital emergency. If you are worried worm count monthly so you know the exact state of his worms. You can either saliva or blood test for tapeworm. When this happened to me the vet hospital told me to give equest for encysted a miss at least until the spring. (obviously if you have a massive worm problem you will need help from the vet)
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Post by janwilky on Nov 14, 2014 21:08:50 GMT 1
Glad your boy doesn't have ulcers ba, but of course as you are fully aware the hindgut is very long and the problem could well be further back... My lot have been on Mycosorb A+ for a week and Lucas is very different. He is softer, gentler than he's ever been, even when I first treated him for suspected ulcers/hindgut issues. He's more engaged, friendly, even enjoying a scratch which he rarely does. He just has a different 'feel' about him if that doesn't sound too fluffy. You could say his aura has changed, but I guess it comes down to him feeling much more comfortable and therefore relaxed. Most noticeably, we clipped him on Monday and he was totally cool about it. He's usually OK to clip but we've never, in five years, managed to clip the back half of his belly. He would kick up with his hind legs as the clippers passed the midline. This time, his whole belly was clipped, totally without fuss, all the way back to his sheath. It may be coincidence, but when I rode Bambi just a few days into feeding the Mycosorb she was more relaxed than she's been since the end of summer and the start of the wetter weather. She's been rather sharp, mareish and anxious for a few weeks: not in any kind of major way but just not so easy going as she was all summer. She was so chilled last Sunday that she sat down with me on board and thought about having a roll - luckily my shriek of surprise brought her to her senses and she got straight back up again! Also, Bambi has been standing closer to Lucas on the yard than I've ever seen her do before - almost as though she was seeking protection from her big friend. She definitely thinks he's been gentled
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