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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 20:37:54 GMT 1
Jen, you said a wallop or a wip wop. Your meaning was pretty clear, whatever I may or may not assume. Even if you say you now meant a wallop with a wip wop, it's still not acceptable. It is totally irrelevant what the op has or hasn't already done. You have advocated giving a horse a throp or a wallop, those are your words not mine.
If my horse is high, so be it. I will defend the right of a horse not to be hit, and will make the IH position crystal clear to anyone who suggests that hitting a horse is acceptable. Unless we are talking about situations of danger or emergency, it is not acceptable to hit a horse. End of.
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Sept 21, 2014 22:46:09 GMT 1
But the use of a wip wop rope is endorsed by IH isnt it?
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Post by alonerawnut on Sept 22, 2014 6:07:52 GMT 1
I think it was the suggestion of a wallop OR wip wop that has caused concern: you don't use the wip wop to 'wallop' (I don't think you'd be able to because it's so soft!) so it was interpreted as something else being used to 'wallop' or 'throp'.
Could we steer back to the original query, which I'm very interested in: how would you transfer your ability to encourage forward movement from the ground (leading / long-lining) into the saddle, if you don't have a helper to lead while you ride?
Would you immediately jump off and lead if you got no response from legs / voice / wip-wop-flapping? Or would you continue to try to move the feet even if it's rein-back or yielding the hind quarters? I have to say in Harry's case that if he gets stuck, I would probably jump off and lead him forwards, to get him moving forward calmly in the direction I was asking, as he can get anxious / confused if you start backing him up or turning him sharply: his head goes up and his neck tenses - things hislordshipsmum and I have tried to avoid. I know that with other horses you could quite successfully reverse them in the direction you want, if the 'forwards' gear wasn't working!
Does anyone have any tips?
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Post by alonerawnut on Sept 22, 2014 6:16:34 GMT 1
Get him so you can move every foot in every direction off a quiet leg Marychick: when we work with Harry, he sometimes needs very clear and 'obvious' aids so he understands what we're asking: it's difficult to get him to understand when we're subtle. Would you use your weight and a gentle nudging pressure to ask for lateral movement in the saddle? We've successfully transferred some leading skills into riding skills when there are two of us working with Harry: the leader can back-up the rider when he doesn't understand the rider's aids, but now hislordshipsmum is mostly working by herself, we don't have a good set of techniques to transfer the groundwork aids to ridden.
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Post by clipclop on Sept 22, 2014 7:50:40 GMT 1
Ditto alonerawnut, you're not looking to turn sharply, more of a gentle request for lateral movement.
Personally, I teach mine on the ground to turn on the forehand by lifting the line high and turn on the quarters with a low line just gently bringing the front end round. If you have definition between the cue for each, you can use the rein to direct and the leg to nudge to get movement of the leg(s) you want.
Also be aware of not using too much rein when asking them to move - if they understand rein means stop, using too much to ask for lateral movement can confuse them. I personally use a bit so am either lifting or opening the hand to ask for direction and movement from seat and leg. Some types of bitless bridles (not all), will not differentiate between the different requests very well as the rein will apply the exact same pressure regardless of where/how you use it and so you need to be sure that you have a clear request for each movement.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by clipclop on Sept 22, 2014 7:59:56 GMT 1
In terms of transferring ground work to ridden - voice commands are very important as well as rein positioning.
Horses don't innately know that leg means go so you need to teach them using pressure and release. If you think of first teaching a horse to lead - you apply gentle pressure and immediately release once you get movement. You want to be doing the same with the leg. Lots of walk-halt-walk transitions using voice commands and energy combined with leg ensuring leg pressure is released the moment you get movement. Gradually as leg is understood, you remove the voice commands.
As I said in my original post, a wip wop or a schooling whip/carrot stick will only help if they understand the request means forward, otherwise you are just confusing them even more.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Sept 22, 2014 8:04:54 GMT 1
You could use the reins to turn the horse side to side as if weaving, if you do it well enough the forelegs start to rock which unsticks them then you can ask again. I would ride with a schooling whip and give a tap to back up the leg. I have in the past very successfully used a piece of baling string tied in a loop under the tail threaded through the gullet of the saddle and tied loosely to a neck strap then when you feel them backing off you can just give it a tug to deter them from planting. No matter how well they are prepared some will be sticky transferring from ground aids to ridden work and this is when some people just dont have the bottle to ride them through it. Timing is everything and they can feel your hesitation very well once you are on board. This is why people end up stuck in Parelli mode for years on end thinking it is just time needed when in reality a better rider would get the job done.
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Post by crazycolt on Sept 22, 2014 9:40:18 GMT 1
Oh dear, okay, I'll just make myself clear seeing it's my thread that brought this up, and then not mention this again. LizP, I'm with you on this one, whatever words are used. A throp, a wallop, to me these convey intent with force, anger or annoyance, if I'm wrong, I'm sorry. When I use a wip-wop, it is with the intent to irritate, to aggravate, to make the wrong thing uncomfortable, but never with anger or aggression. With regards to the 'carrot' stick, I use it (not very often) as an aid, to direct, to ask, never with any force, or ill intent. As a mare would nip her foal on the rump to move him, so with the 'carrot' stick. If they don't work, then I'll take the time, and find another way. If I can't take the time, then I shouldn't have a horse, just My Opinion, how I feel about horses, how I Will be their voice. But Jen1, I totally agree with you about timing and intention, but for me if I can't get this right, I shall perservere until I can, and I get the result I hope for. Anyway, I'm off out to long-line etc; and on Thursday I have Gina from Trec coming over, so shall see how things go, and keep you all updated. Stay together guys, our horses are the important ones here!
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Post by janwilky on Sept 22, 2014 10:24:37 GMT 1
Personally, I think intention is both a very difficult and a very important skill to learn. Sometimes when working with a difficult horse or tricky situation you might need quite a powerful level of assertion, not to mention perfect timing, but that's not the same as aggression and horses know the difference. I know that my difficult boy has become far, far easier to handle as I've learned through painful experience how to have a clear intent without fear, hesitation or aggression, and now he's a dude most of the time - for me: he can still be tricky for others to handle though, including experienced people who don't know him or don't show what he considers to be an adequate level of politeness or respect. At the the end of the day it's the horse who tells us if we're getting it right or wrong, if we're prepared to listen.
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Post by marychick on Sept 22, 2014 10:28:38 GMT 1
Get him so you can move every foot in every direction off a quiet leg Marychick: when we work with Harry, he sometimes needs very clear and 'obvious' aids so he understands what we're asking: it's difficult to get him to understand when we're subtle. Would you use your weight and a gentle nudging pressure to ask for lateral movement in the saddle? We've successfully transferred some leading skills into riding skills when there are two of us working with Harry: the leader can back-up the rider when he doesn't understand the rider's aids, but now hislordshipsmum is mostly working by herself, we don't have a good set of techniques to transfer the groundwork aids to ridden. Not caught up with the whole thread yet but just answering this directly. If you're having to be loud he doesn't really understand the aid yet. I would always make sure my first aid is very quiet, the aid I want them to be able to ultimately respond to. Then I would give them a chance to respond before upping the pressure. If you go straight to loud they'll never understand a quiet aid. The leg aid is a trained cue not necessarily something that is particularly innate. So if you think of in terms of conditioning this is the button or the unconditioned stimulus (until it's trained) so you want to pick the aid you ultimately want them to respond to and consistently use this first. Then you need a way to teach them what this means. Now this might be upping the pressure with the leg (never jerky kicking as this with make them brace INTO the pressure), some people use bumping of the leg (I tend not to as I like my release to be very clear), if they go to sleep you can give them a click or something to up their energy so they try some sort of movement and keep the leg on until they offer the right thing and potentially help with the rein if needed, to explain you mean over you can have someone on the ground like you were saying or some people use flags on sticks or ropes from the saddle as a visual direction aid (desensitise them to the object first, introduce gradually and NEVER hit them with it or shove it in their face- that will make them brace and is just rude). You just need to find something the horse understands means over without force to explain your quiet aid. When I'm teaching lateral aids I always start on the ground with just my body language. Some horses find it physically difficult, especially to move their shoulders over if they are naturally build on the forehand so I want to be on the ground to help them understand how it works and build up some muscle memory. Then I will start adding in the leg aids from the ground so I will gently (using the pressure I want them to ultimately respond to) put my hand where my leg would go for this particular movement and would release initially for just a sway over and build up. As I'm on the ground I still have body language to help explain if they get stuck. When this is perfect (a lot of people move on too quickly) I would go to ridden having someone on the ground to help explain if possible but if not would try some of the techniques above (depending on the horse). The trick is to always offer quiet first and give them a chance to think about it for a second before adding the reinforcer. Again initially just ask for a sway over and praise them like they're the best thing in the world. People tend to get too greedy too quickly. Until you have them good at this in an easy place you don't have much chance in a place they are worried/want to plant but it doesn't need to take too long to get it good if you find the right reinforcer for the horse. Sounds like a lot of effort but it really is a lifesaver in a whole number of situations. I tend to find horses that plant are weighting the front end so moving their front shoulders backwards and forwards is the best way to unlock them but is still easier for them then straight forward off both legs so you're More likely to get a response. Even if you can't get the shoulders just getting them good enough so you can move their quarters backwards and forwards makes the stopping a bit less comfortable (plus good lateral movement is essential in nearly every style of riding from trec, to all diciplines of western to dressage! ) Until then circles/backing up/any sort of movement are great if they plant. I do get off and lead or have someone with me but I will often lead backwards and forwards past the point they planted and then ultimately try and get back on if I think they will be ready or at least drop back and drive them forward from the ground a bit so they are leading (if safe to do so). Get just a few steps at first then HUGE reward, loosen the girth and walk home. p.s. didn't answer your question about using weight aids... might subtly shift my weight a bit but I try to keep pretty much in the middle of the saddle as much as possible in case the horse suddenly reacts to something
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Post by marychick on Sept 22, 2014 10:52:33 GMT 1
oooh poles on the ground are also a great visual aid for helping teach what the lateral leg aid means I use these a lot in all sorts of formations... OK honestly stopping now I get carried away
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Post by hislordshipsmum on Sept 22, 2014 15:42:11 GMT 1
Crazycolt - we've got a lot to work on!! Finding comments very useful. Thanks marychick, did/have started quiet with Harry but think perhaps haven't given him enough time to process and perhaps have got a bit "loud" too soon. Dido has often commented to me that I need to do less pressure to begin with, always easy to follow her advice when she's around, but I sometimes forget and need a reminder!! And as I'm on my own, perhaps I need to lead a bit more again to help H understand. I think I've just got a bit over excited that I can/have the confidence now to ride more (and H being so good), so no doubt I've done a bit too much riding rather than still keep the long lining/leading up to help him out.
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Post by crazycolt on Sept 22, 2014 21:20:58 GMT 1
hislordshipsmum, I've posted updates on the Members board, but also I'm thinking the same as you, although I didn't think so. Shall follow your progress with interest. Make sure you check out the members thread. x
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Post by hislordshipsmum on Sept 22, 2014 21:27:34 GMT 1
Yep, just read your post. I've got Dido coming on the 14 October to help with these issues so will let you know how that goes and what advice she gives - she's been working with us for 10 years so knows us both well and usually puts everything into perspective for me. I long lined him this afternoon and he went alot better, I worked on him responding to click/voice, moving forward and trotting and he responded immediately - and didn't have issues with the hedge today!! I've got my friend coming on Friday too so am going to try riding with her leading him to help him understand what I'm asking - hopefully that'll help. Well done for all your hard work xx
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Post by crazycolt on Sept 22, 2014 21:37:17 GMT 1
Thanks, and you too, will watch for your updates, and good luck! x
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