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Post by crazycolt on Sept 19, 2014 14:56:56 GMT 1
I'm torn between laughing and crying, and I've done both in the last few days. Things were going relatively well with Morgan, then he decided that he was the one to say when we stopped, as in 'Okay, you walk home from here!' On Tuesday I sat on him, in the middle of the lane, (where's the traffic when you need it!) I kissed, I used voice, I jiggled, I wip-wopped, I bounced, I squeezed, did everything but dance on his back, and the cheeky *** rested a hind leg, and went to sleep, for 50 minutes. So tell me I should have stuck it out, I honestly think I'd still have been there! So yesterday decided back to groundwork and long-lining, and that I'd try the 'obstacle course' in the field. So we walked around it first, fine, then long-lined around it, fine, then got on him, and rode around it, and then around the field, absolutely fine, good as gold. Then, today! followed the same pattern, without the walk around first, and when I got on him, walked for about 3 or 4 minutes, then seemed to decide that was it! Again, maybe I should have just sat there, but I jumped off in the end, and put him back to long-lining, with lots of trot! Good as gold, had some lovely transitions, and called it a day. When I checked at lunchtime, he was flat out in his stable, opened one eye, looked at me, and closed it again. Cheek just doesn't come into it. It was/is amusing, but I really don't want him to have the idea that he sets the programme! I also don't want to use a stick, well, I have a carrot stick, and have used that to tap his rump, which works on the ground, but not on his back. Maybe we need to have a showdown, but I don't want him to do it because I 'hit' him, but neither do I want a horse who pleases himself! All ideas and suggestions, within reason! considered!
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Post by ruthp on Sept 19, 2014 19:33:13 GMT 1
Have you tried turning his head right round to your knee? Very difficult for them not to move a leg in order to balance - then you just have to keep turning one way and then the other until he decides it's easier to walk straight than it is zig zagging.
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Post by crazycolt on Sept 19, 2014 19:44:15 GMT 1
Ha, tried all that, held the rein out, put weight in one stirrup, leaned forward, I got one step, then stop, turning his head, unfortunately we've worked on flexion, and it's obviously worked well! he stood nibbling, or trying to, on the toe of my boot! Finding it so difficult because my previous horse was easy to read, very reactive, if he was upset, which was most of the time, I knew about it! So, is Morgan the opposite sort, that totally shuts down instead? I sat and thought about that, and watched the video back, and I really don't think so. He wasn't showing the slightest bit of stress, he was calm, his head was down, but what do I know! I was waiting for an explosion, but it never came! Have to admit that I'm pretty stuck now.
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Post by marychick on Sept 19, 2014 21:36:41 GMT 1
It sounds like it might be a bit of a confidence issue if he's better once you've led him through a few times first so you might be along the right lines going back to groundwork first.... But if your talking about just getting him moving often your best best is often something lateral rather than straight forward. If it was me I would practice tons of lateral work somewhere were he tends to work best. Get him so you can move every foot in every direction off a quiet leg- starting from the ground and building up to ridden always making sure the foot you're asking to step across steps infront of the other so he's thinking forwards and not bracing back. One of the most useful excercises when they plant is stepping their front feet across sideways as they have to unlock. As soon as they move at all let everything go away. Might take a couple of goes but they usually get going with that. Then then get a few steps forward, jump off loosen the girth and walk home.
Hope you get there soon - I know how frustrating it is!!!
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Post by crazycolt on Sept 19, 2014 22:48:57 GMT 1
Thanks marychick, I'll give it a go and see what tomorrow brings! x
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Post by marychick on Sept 20, 2014 0:35:06 GMT 1
Fingers crossed
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Post by jen1 on Sept 20, 2014 1:42:34 GMT 1
Far be it for me to cast aspersions, but having spent most of my summer training horse and human and finding the horses a piece of cake, humans less so , because a long long time ago I learnt about quite calm intention which is very hard to teach, eg , that can be used in all situations , is yesterday a livery lady's horse had broken into what I call my sheep field, after retrieving him , he went straight back to the gate to do it ago after 5 or 10 mins of her trying to tell him to bugger off , in another direction , getting big and flappy, being stern he was just running rings round her, so I went in not fast not slow, not loud or quite, but with the intention of you will move id only got within 15 foot of him , he knew , what he knew I dont know , ive just got an expectation of what I require, never back off what ive committed to. So what im saying is morgan sounds like he isnt convinced by your intention , choosing to ignore your many methods when 1 should do, any movement is better than nothing , sod going to sleep for 50 mins, id have made him move in any direction , made it uncomfortable to not move forward, mental pressure is a good tool at times, you have to believe you hold the energy and the answer, hard to explain , but I think it boils down to total focus stopping it before he starts , if you dont think you can do it get off and try another day, as long as pain isnt involved it should come good,
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Post by alonerawnut on Sept 20, 2014 3:29:27 GMT 1
We've had similar issues with Harry: really good being lead or on the long-lines but sometimes gets a bit stuck when you're riding. B (hislordshipsmum on here, who owns Harry) and I were just having a similar discussion, because B's having the same problem. When someone else is with the rider, it helps to have them clip the line onto the dually to encourage Harry from the ground. Once he's got going, we can then unclip. We're just not sure what to do when B's riding alone, other than get off and lead.
Do you have a friend or helper who could walk along with you and lead when you get stuck?
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Post by jennyb on Sept 20, 2014 7:43:12 GMT 1
I got a brilliant quote from my ex-Cadre Noir trainer when Gazdag was going through his napping phase as a 5yo (he was quite dramatic in true Gazdag style, he didn't plant but cantered sideways and cavorted and leapt about!). "You can be like the devil on his back, but with no anger."
Sitting and waiting for this horse to get bored clearly isn't going to work, make it uncomfortable for him to plant but don't get angry or cause pain! Neck flexions are great but also teach him to yield his hindquarters to your leg, if you disengage the quarters you've removed a lot of the plant.
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Post by crazycolt on Sept 20, 2014 7:46:51 GMT 1
Hi - and thanks both. Jen 1, I'd say you've got it, it has to be that, I know I've had trouble in the past, which is why I video'd myself. Pleased because I expected to see something really obvious, disapointed because I didn't really! And then becasue I was going to make sure that if he wouldn't move with me on, he was going to move on the long-lines, he behaved beautifully, better than ever, so got to be my intention. And alonerawnut, yes, I don't think I had enough time riding him out with Tally before Katy emigrated, only 3 weeks, so he didn't get into the pattern of just 'going.' On my own, no one 'useful' around, so a difficult one. I have, however, recently got involved with Trec, so maybe a training day with them will stir him up a bit. I'm sure that I'm stopping just before the point where he will give in, trouble is finding it! But, I'll perservere, think it's my middle name, and as with William, I'm learning so, so much! Thanks all, I'll keep you updated! x
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Post by crazycolt on Sept 20, 2014 7:48:50 GMT 1
Sorry jennyb, forgot to say, he will flex, and he will yield his hindquarters, but only one step! then stop again! I have to motivate him more - but how?!! x
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Post by hislordshipsmum on Sept 20, 2014 8:37:15 GMT 1
How spooky it was to read your thread crazycolt when Laura (alonerawnut) and I had just been emailing each other about the issues I've been having with Harry not wanting to go forward whilst ridden into trot at the moment! I have every sympathy and understanding of your situation. Our issues with Harry go back a long time and in some ways we have been too successful with dessensitising him to everything to go from a very stressed, panicy, run away horse to a calm, chilled, happy horse with low energy (which we much prefer!). But now that his and my confidence are on a high (at the same time) I'm upping what I am asking him to do. My issue at the moment is getting the increase in energy without bringing back the adrenalin rush (this can still occur if he is "pushed" over that thin line which I'm well aware off and can usually read him so that I don't get into a situation where he could explode). So same as your question how to motivate? safely? I am more aware of the issue this year as, as Laura says I am totally on my own. If I had had problems I would wait until Laura was with me so that we could show Harry, by Laura leading him, what I was asking him to do whilst riding, but as she's in NZ at the moment, not possible. So I'm having to figure things out on best way to deal on my own. Luckily I have arranged for my friend Lindsey to come next Friday to help out so will be interesting to see how he responds to this "back up" and whether he will engage his brain in what I am asking him. I've also got Dido (RA) coming again on 14 October so hopefully she will come up with some more ideas (as she generally does ). Unfortunately I am unable to ride him in the field as he is far too unpredictable to be ridden in the field safely. He can go from totally chilled and calm to flat out galloping, bucking up field within a few seconds (luckily doesn't happen too often now), but although I can control, predict this on the long lines, I am just not confident enough in myself to cope with it riding him. Perhaps crazycolt sharing our experiences we and others might be able to come up with a solution to help us both.
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Post by janwilky on Sept 20, 2014 8:54:54 GMT 1
I have, however, recently got involved with Trec, so maybe a training day with them will stir him up a bit. Funnily enough, I was just going to say maybe he's decided that it's all a bit boring so what about winding him up a bit and doing something like a fun ride, as he's obviously a very calm sort? A Trec training day sounds like a good idea though. I can sympathise with your frustration, Bambi went through a horribly nappy phase which started when she was ill last year but it became a habit when she came back into work this spring. She just said NO! and was pretty stubborn about it. Partly it was a loss of confidence - and strength - after her illness but some of it was pure opinionated mare too and she was quite calm about it. Moving her laterally sometimes did the job, but she did a pretty nifty line in running backwards with me which was a bit tricky to counteract! I found the best solution for us was simply to get off and walk, sometimes for the whole ride if necessary. It got her moving, helped her get fitter, increased her confidence and she didn't get to learn that if she took just a few steps forward I'd reward her by turning around and taking her home again - she's far too clever, we'd have been stuck going out for mini-hacks for ever! I needed to get her unstuck, mentally and physically, and walking with her did the trick - and I got fit too as I did it for about a month and it's very hilly around here. Once we got going properly we started hacking out with friends and doing fun rides, and she remembered that she actually quite enjoys hacking out and the napping is now a thing of the past - 99% of the time anyway, and if she does nap I know I can get her moving with what Jen1 would call pretty convincing intention! So don't despair, you'll get there and if you saw me riding Bambi now you'd never guess we had a frustrating napping problem six months ago. She recently starting being very reluctant to load in the trailer though, which was a new one for her - she used to load well and travel badly. This summer she's become more confident about travelling (we've done a lot) and suddenly she decided she didn't want to load. Again she was very calm about it, and if I let her she'd park at the bottom of the ramp and go to sleep. I could always get her in with patience, but it would take about 5-10 minutes and was a bit frustrating. Yesterday I decided that was a bit of a boring pattern, I was quite sure it had just settled into a habit and I just approached it differently with a 'no way are we playing this game today pony' attitude - and lo and behold she was on there and eating her haynet in 20 seconds, and in 10 coming come again - fastest she's loaded for months! I suspect a few more repeats of that and she'll decide that game isn't worth playing anymore. Ponies and cobs are clever little packages aren't they
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Post by crazycolt on Sept 20, 2014 8:55:56 GMT 1
Hi hislordshipsmum - gosh, yes, very similar. I have to say that I agree, think I also am a victim of 'success' in that Morgan takes almost everything in his stride! Have to say that Harry sounds more like my other horse William, who was very unpredictable. Up to now Morgan has not had an 'episode' which may not mean that he won't, maybe it means that I haven't pushed it that far! Makes me think that I too am not confident enough to push him to the edge, just in case! Will be very interested to follow your progress, and pick your brains to see how you get on! I'm going to concentrate on the long-lining and groundwork more, and see if that brings a result with the riding, which it did with Will. I also have a 'Trec' lady coming over to give me a lesson, she's also a Trec judge, and a Dressage judge too, so will see what her take is on it. What I worry about is not having someone on the same 'wavelength' although I'm more than happy to say what I will and won't do! Would be great to share, and see how we get on. Thanks.
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Post by hislordshipsmum on Sept 20, 2014 9:15:02 GMT 1
Interesting saying about doing other things as could be due to boredom! Dido had been saying from last year that Harry wants to do more, so have been trying to ride him further down the bridleway, but although he starts off keen when we reach a new area, head goes up saying "Oh my God mum don't know if I can deal with this"!!! That's when I usually get off and lead into new areas to build up the confidence again.
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