Im not sure how much longer i can do this

[daviesbaby20]

Ok to cut a long story short ive had my gelding since june last year (he was going be shot as the producer that had him said he had arthritis) hes been cleared of arthritis by my vet
He was gelded late and still retains some stallion traits
His behaviour seems to be more the reason he needed a new home so had an RA (Paddy Gracey) out to him as he bit me quite badly and bow have a lovely scar on my arm for my efforts and his behaviour improved with the new education but in the last couple of weeks he seems to have deteriorated again still handling the way paddy advised nothing has changed with his surroundings same yard feed etc in the past week he has lashed out at me more times than i can count hes bitten me at least four times in the last two days

I dont know what to do with him he is being so confrontational and is bot afraid to back it up by any if the following methods teeth front legs and back legs its getting to the point where im frightened to death if doing anything with him
Tonight i was simply trying to groom him as yard manager had turned him out for me today and hed been rained on i got teeth struck out with his front legs and back legs !! I just really dont know what more i can do for him he has all the love he could ever want the deepest bed on the yard and wants for nothing (hes got a bigger wardrobe than i have) hes always got food whether it be his hard feed or haynet

Wed made so many steps forward and now just feel so despondent i dont know how to move forward i used to be able to spend hours grooming him so cannot for the life of me understand why he has bow decided he doesnt like it

Sorry for the ramble but really dont know where else to turn as most of the advice im getting is to get rid (if i did decide to rehome him i worry about where he would end up and how he would e treated) hes such a lovely boy when hes being like this i dont know what more i can do

[rifruffian]

hullo daviesbaby20 just now to take you up on the last two lines of your post. Yes indeed if you rehome the horse almost certainly he will be treated differently , by someone different. On the face of it, that's what's needed. Your post indicates a dangerous situation for you; impending serious injury or fatality.
Rehoming may be a good option for both of you.

[daviesbaby20]

I feel as though i am failing him ive never given up on anything anyone or any being in my life And part of me just wants to weather the storm but then part of me also questions if i have what he needs from what I can gather he has been very roughly treated inthe past an wonder if now that he is being given choices to make this is blowing his mind a little ? X

[rifruffian]

Yes you are asking the right questions of yourself.
Perhaps at this stage of your life you do not just yet have the experience and skills to deal with the situation now presented; otherwise it may not have deteriorated to this point.
My final comment is ........think 'safety first'.......good luck.

[fth]

I can understand how you are feeling -- it sounds as if you ahve already invested a lot of yourself in this relationship and it is frustrating and sad when things don't seem to progress

First of all take a deep breath -- as you said, he has had LOTS of issues and it is not even a YEAR yet -- things are not fixed in that timespan

From his point of view having the deepest bed, feed at all times and a full wardrobe is pretty meaningless -- what is more important to him is a human who listens to him, understands him and knows how to give him clear boundaries so he can feel safe and not need to protect himself all the time

that is what PAddy would have shared with you -- so to me the first thing would be to have PAddy come back again -- it is highly likely that having established some basics, both you and your horse need a "tune up" -- with winters limited turnout (for the horse) limited time (for us) pressures and stresses creep up on us and we end up doing things in ways that do not work for us or our horses

so I strongly recomment getting PAddy out to help ASAP -- you will probably find it is just a mtter of one or two small thigns you can easily work on....

Cathy

[daviesbaby20]

Feb 3, 2012 0:01:49 GMT 1 fth said:

I can understand how you are feeling -- it sounds as if you ahve already invested a lot of yourself in this relationship and it is frustrating and sad when things don't seem to progress

First of all take a deep breath -- as you said, he has had LOTS of issues and it is not even a YEAR yet -- things are not fixed in that timespan

From his point of view having the deepest bed, feed at all times and a full wardrobe is pretty meaningless -- what is more important to him is a human who listens to him, understands him and knows how to give him clear boundaries so he can feel safe and not need to protect himself all the time

that is what PAddy would have shared with you -- so to me the first thing would be to have PAddy come back again -- it is highly likely that having established some basics, both you and your horse need a "tune up" -- with winters limited turnout (for the horse) limited time (for us) pressures and stresses creep up on us and we end up doing things in ways that do not work for us or our horses

so I strongly recomment getting PAddy out to help ASAP -- you will probably find it is just a mtter of one or two small thigns you can easily work on....

Cathy

Thanks Cathy

I know Tommy doesnt appreciate the material things as a human would lol i really am not a giver upper despite being told repeatedly by friends who see me struggling with him that i should get a horse that has been there and done it as im not afraid to say he has knocked my confidence hugely

When i was on the phone to mum crying my eyes out sat in my car after hed bitten me again tonight she suggested having paddy back out to us so think this will be what we will do (when he came out last time we discussed Tommy spending some time at paddys yard) really not sure that taking this particular horse out of his environment will do much good as hes a really sharp personality an adapts to situations hes put in previously to coming to me he was passed from pillar to post and seems settled now so think uprooting him will upset him more maybe this is something to discuss with paddy

I just want to do the best that i can for my lovely boy hes so mixed up in his own head bless him and being faced with choices i think makes his head explode x

[daviesbaby20]

Funnily enough tonight when id gone back into the block after having some time out i had my ipod on and bruno mars grenade was playing and it struck a chord as to how i was feeling at that point in time.

[2 bays & a grey:D]

Being in for 23 hours of the day can be very frustrating for a horse. Horses need time to be horses and not have restrictions placed on them all the time by us humans- im sorry to say, thats the reason I didn't move to the yard, 1 hour a day turnout all winter is simply not enough in my honest opinion

I think it would do him good to go to Paddies place if you can afford it. Blips are normal, and it woudl be good to re-define your leadership to him. If you are feeling more and more nervous around him he will be sensing that, he won't see you as a trust worthy leader and from what I can gather he is a horse who feels he needs to defend himself.

I feel your pain because I have been there, the more wary you become of them, the more wary they become of you and it becomes a vicious cycle.

[2 bays & a grey:D]

I also just wanted to add that stabling 24/7 can cause ulcers, it may be likely your boy has them, especially as he is grumpy when you are brushing him, is he more sensitive around the belly area?

again I have had experiences of ulcers, and know the symptoms/signs. Medication is expensive, approx £1000 per week, are you insured?

If not try a supplement called Succeed- its £123 for a 2 month supply, it has worked wonders with my mare.. and its for digestive health- it may be worth putting him on it. Pain can affect a horse in many ways- its also very important he has adlib forage, and empty stomach for more than 3 hours can also lead to ulcers.

It may not be that but I'm guessing its likely given his past and his current stable management.

[daviesbaby20]

Hi tbg
The brushing him issue only raised its head yesterday it has never been a problem before he was fine again today x

[janwilky]

Hi, I'm new on here but your post really struck a chord with me, because I had very similar problems with my big cob gelding, including the biting, so I know how you're feeling and it's not nice. I don't know if my experiences will be of any help to you but thought you might appreciate hearing that others have been there and (I hope!) come out the other side.

Having been bolted with, bucked off, bitten and nearly kicked I was given very good advice that I should sell my boy for my own safety, but I decided I wanted to work through our problems and try to find a solution. There were all kinds of issues to address with him, some of which were to do with his past, some were physical issues and some (probably the most significant) were to do with my lack of experience/confidence. Things got worse before they got better, but I can honestly say that accepting the challenge has turned out to be the most rewarding thing I've ever done because I've learned so much, met some fantastic people and, finally, started to build a deeply meaningful relationship with my horse. But it has been a difficult time too and I had to accept that I needed to change if I was to have any chance of becoming the leader my horse needed me to be, I had to give up all ambition to ride him, at least temporarily, and we're still a work in progress although I'm finally (two years down the line) planning to get back on him this spring. So it is possible, with determination and the right help, to turn such difficult situations around but you need to know you can dig deep to find the resources it might take (time, cost, energy, emotions...). This was the second 'challenging' horse I'd had in a short space of time and I sold the first one - I still believe that was the right thing to do as we just didn't have the connection that I knew I had with this horse.

You mention that your boy was gelded late and retains some stallion traits. We suspected this was true of my cob too, although I didn't know his early history but he could be a bit moody and had a very 'challenging' attitude at times. I put him on Global Herbs' Rigcalm (based on Agnus castus) to see if it made any difference and it did - he became much calmer, less 'emotional' and more willing to listen to me. His status in our little herd of two also changed dramatically - he went from being a bully to being very much the follower, and he's happier for it. The changes appear to be permanent, as he's been off it now for several months with no slipping back to his previous tactics. It was only a part of the picture but it helped a lot, so it might be worth trying it for a few weeks if you suspect your gelding might be a bit hormonal.

[daviesbaby20]

Feb 7, 2012 0:59:24 GMT 1 janwilky said:

Hi, I'm new on here but your post really struck a chord with me, because I had very similar problems with my big cob gelding, including the biting, so I know how you're feeling and it's not nice. I don't know if my experiences will be of any help to you but thought you might appreciate hearing that others have been there and (I hope!) come out the other side.

Having been bolted with, bucked off, bitten and nearly kicked I was given very good advice that I should sell my boy for my own safety, but I decided I wanted to work through our problems and try to find a solution. There were all kinds of issues to address with him, some of which were to do with his past, some were physical issues and some (probably the most significant) were to do with my lack of experience/confidence. Things got worse before they got better, but I can honestly say that accepting the challenge has turned out to be the most rewarding thing I've ever done because I've learned so much, met some fantastic people and, finally, started to build a deeply meaningful relationship with my horse. But it has been a difficult time too and I had to accept that I needed to change if I was to have any chance of becoming the leader my horse needed me to be, I had to give up all ambition to ride him, at least temporarily, and we're still a work in progress although I'm finally (two years down the line) planning to get back on him this spring. So it is possible, with determination and the right help, to turn such difficult situations around but you need to know you can dig deep to find the resources it might take (time, cost, energy, emotions...). This was the second 'challenging' horse I'd had in a short space of time and I sold the first one - I still believe that was the right thing to do as we just didn't have the connection that I knew I had with this horse.

You mention that your boy was gelded late and retains some stallion traits. We suspected this was true of my cob too, although I didn't know his early history but he could be a bit moody and had a very 'challenging' attitude at times. I put him on Global Herbs' Rigcalm (based on Agnus castus) to see if it made any difference and it did - he became much calmer, less 'emotional' and more willing to listen to me. His status in our little herd of two also changed dramatically - he went from being a bully to being very much the follower, and he's happier for it. The changes appear to be permanent, as he's been off it now for several months with no slipping back to his previous tactics. It was only a part of the picture but it helped a lot, so it might be worth trying it for a few weeks if you suspect your gelding might be a bit hormonal.

Omg this post almost had me in tears !!!!!! This sounds so like my current situation !!! Ive had him on rigcalm in the past and to me seemed to work but on the advise of an instructor i was having at the time took him off it as shed said that "herbal supplements are rubbish and just a money spinner for the companies" so will put him back on it i think

Thank you soo much for this post as i too have had it from all sides telling me to sell him but for me this would be giving up on him and would be unsure of how / where to rehome him to as it would be very easy to if you werent IH minded to do the unthinkable (ive been advised that all needs to sort him out is a good beating!!!!!!) which i have to say is a completely in my opinion a disgusting conception and NOT the way to deal with any creature especially one that already struggles to trust anybody
X

[janwilky]

It's interesting that you tried the Rigcalm too. I rang up Global Herbs advice line and they were very helpful, I talked through some of the behavioural 'symptoms' I was having and they suggested trying him on it for 6 weeks - if it didn't work in that time then the problem probably wasn't related to his hormones. I saw changes very quickly - within a few days and I was convinced within two weeks (as was his pony companion!). Rigcalm is mainly Agnus castus, which has been shown to act on the pituitary gland, and magnesium oxide which is a well known 'calmer'. Herbal supplements are not rubbish, they can be powerful but they're not a miracle cure. If I needed it again I would probably try straight Agnus castus (which is relatively inexpensive) as he's already on magnesium anyway.

One of the main lessons I've learned over the last two years has been to trust my instincts and become more discerning about who I take advice from. I needed help, badly, but it needed to be the right kind of help - both for me and for my horse. I walked away from a very competent riding instructor who bullied my horse, called me 'spectacularly naive' and made matters between us much worse by undermining our confidence in each other. I gradually learned to trust my intuition, realising that you can be inexperienced but still make good and valid choices - life teaches you that, you're not naive and it's insulting and inaccurate to be labeled as such!

Obviously your situation will be different from ours, but for me I had to gradually pick apart several strands of issues with Lucas. As well as the hormones these included dental issues, incorrect foot balance which gave rise to hock and back problems, dietary problems and a badly fitting saddle as well as me causing confusion by trying so many different things to try to resolve the problems we were having! If I'd just taken advice from any one of the people I turned to for help I don't think we'd have got as far as we have - it's been a case of steering a course through the morass of physical and behavioural issues and chipping away at them by layers. And learning, learning, learning.

Now I try to let the horse be my guide. If I'm getting it right, he is happy and calm. If I'm not, I need to take a deep breath and do something differently, or read some more, or get some help. I still make mistakes with him nearly every day, but he lets me know (brutally sometimes!) and forgives me when I try again and do better.

If you do decide to keep going with yours (and there's absolutely no shame in deciding it's more than you can handle right now), do get some help from people you can trust to be constructive and supportive. It sounds like the RA you had out before might be a good place to start? Sometimes even though you think you are doing things the way you've been shown, little things creep in over time - horsey pushes a bit, asks 'can I get away with...' and doesn't quite get the clear answer he needs so pushes a bit more... even easier to let things slip when you're worried about them and not sure what's causing the behaviour, and the more insecure they are the more they'll question you. Can you tell I've been there?!

Sorry, didn't mean to write such an essay but I do hope things start to improve for you soon .

[daviesbaby20]

Feb 7, 2012 22:05:20 GMT 1 janwilky said:

It's interesting that you tried the Rigcalm too. I rang up Global Herbs advice line and they were very helpful, I talked through some of the behavioural 'symptoms' I was having and they suggested trying him on it for 6 weeks - if it didn't work in that time then the problem probably wasn't related to his hormones. I saw changes very quickly - within a few days and I was convinced within two weeks (as was his pony companion!). Rigcalm is mainly Agnus castus, which has been shown to act on the pituitary gland, and magnesium oxide which is a well known 'calmer'. Herbal supplements are not rubbish, they can be powerful but they're not a miracle cure. If I needed it again I would probably try straight Agnus castus (which is relatively inexpensive) as he's already on magnesium anyway.

One of the main lessons I've learned over the last two years has been to trust my instincts and become more discerning about who I take advice from. I needed help, badly, but it needed to be the right kind of help - both for me and for my horse. I walked away from a very competent riding instructor who bullied my horse, called me 'spectacularly naive' and made matters between us much worse by undermining our confidence in each other. I gradually learned to trust my intuition, realising that you can be inexperienced but still make good and valid choices - life teaches you that, you're not naive and it's insulting and inaccurate to be labeled as such!

Obviously your situation will be different from ours, but for me I had to gradually pick apart several strands of issues with Lucas. As well as the hormones these included dental issues, incorrect foot balance which gave rise to hock and back problems, dietary problems and a badly fitting saddle as well as me causing confusion by trying so many different things to try to resolve the problems we were having! If I'd just taken advice from any one of the people I turned to for help I don't think we'd have got as far as we have - it's been a case of steering a course through the morass of physical and behavioural issues and chipping away at them by layers. And learning, learning, learning.

Now I try to let the horse be my guide. If I'm getting it right, he is happy and calm. If I'm not, I need to take a deep breath and do something differently, or read some more, or get some help. I still make mistakes with him nearly every day, but he lets me know (brutally sometimes!) and forgives me when I try again and do better.

If you do decide to keep going with yours (and there's absolutely no shame in deciding it's more than you can handle right now), do get some help from people you can trust to be constructive and supportive. It sounds like the RA you had out before might be a good place to start? Sometimes even though you think you are doing things the way you've been shown, little things creep in over time - horsey pushes a bit, asks 'can I get away with...' and doesn't quite get the clear answer he needs so pushes a bit more... even easier to let things slip when you're worried about them and not sure what's causing the behaviour, and the more insecure they are the more they'll question you. Can you tell I've been there?!

Sorry, didn't mean to write such an essay but I do hope things start to improve for you soon .

Omg thank you sooooooo much your posts have given me pleasure to read that what im doing is right and yes he does let me know when im making mistakes with him and yes he lets me know sometimes brutally and have a scar on my arm where bit me because i made the wrong choice but that has taught me that that will be one mistake i wont make again so can completely go with the Tommy guiding me to behaving the correct way !!!!! Your posts are making me literally sit and cry as i read them but for good reasons thank you sooooo much you have no idea how much it means to me to know that someone else has had similar issues as the ones we have - Tommy has had a chequered past and from what i can gather am the first constant hes ever had a lot of Tommys behavioural problems seem to stem from deep seated insecurities and asking him to trust me is proving to be the largest step for him to take x

Ps please essay away !!!!!

[janwilky]

Sorry, didn't mean to make you cry!!

Good luck with him - keep following your gut feelings and listening to your horse, and keep yourself safe.

Jan