|
Post by portiabuzz on Dec 22, 2009 17:56:38 GMT 1
why would they lie?? Abusers can have innocent faces....not until you go behind the scenes!
|
|
varkie
Grand Prix Poster
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 4,913
|
Post by varkie on Dec 22, 2009 18:07:08 GMT 1
For anyone who hasn't seen JFP at Olympia, you can see it by going to the Olympia official site - there is a 9 & half minute clip of his act there.
There is of course, a world of difference between different ways a horse may put it's ears back. Unfortunately, I don't perceive JFP horses ears as concentration, I perceive it rather less positively. To me, it looks like a sign of unhappy horses. Interestingly, when they are being allowed just to stand, they exhibit normal ears & normal behaviour. But the moment JFP asks them to do anything, the ears are pinned back for about 80-90% of the time. I thought it was very interesting that of all the horses, the shetland in the act seemed the least miserable.
|
|
|
Post by Butterfly on Dec 22, 2009 18:24:42 GMT 1
I went to france to see this guy I cried all the way home. I didnt like his teaching methods at all. He trains them young and hits them in the face with a whip until they submit. They will do anything for him after that as they are so scared they prefer to comply that face the punishment. His horses performed in an open field and he did a show for us. It should have been beautiful but it was very very sad. The horses were empty ... just robots.
|
|
|
Post by portiabuzz on Dec 22, 2009 18:25:38 GMT 1
im sorry to hear this! xx
|
|
emi
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 3,237
|
Post by emi on Dec 22, 2009 19:19:49 GMT 1
That's a shame, he seemed very impressive in the performance. Yes a couple of the horses had ears back from time to time, but the main reason seemed just to be a bit of inter group rivalry - when 5 horses are that close together for so much time one is bound to make sure it puts the others in their place!
They all seemed pretty relaxed as any horse could be that has to do the same performance twice a day for a week plus more other than Olympia in front of thousands of people. I mean, the way they all laid down together in such a relaxed way, it wasn't like they were flinching anticipating a smack.
I guess some characters of horses can be trained with violence without rebellion, I don't want to believe he does it like that though!
|
|
|
Post by sophielouise on Dec 22, 2009 19:20:02 GMT 1
This is the third time I've tried to reply to this, every time I do, my internet loses connection!!
I saw him at Olympia and was very, very impressed - I thought his skill and admiration for his horses was great. Intrestingly, I remember thinking that each of his horses had a personality, which I liked the fact they were allowed.
Definate thumbs up for me, I'm glad I saw him - although I certainly don't think I'll be wanting to teach any horse of mine to put his hooves on my shoulders!
|
|
auburnalia
Grand Prix Poster
Grand Prix Poster
Take more pictures, you can never have enough.
Posts: 2,681
|
Post by auburnalia on Dec 22, 2009 19:21:40 GMT 1
I was there on Saturday and watched it live - I felt quite uncomfortable throughout to be honest. My sister and I were both in awe of what he was doing but both felt somewhat confused by the horses ears back, heads up, tail swishing, tense body language, especially one of the grays, the littler one of the three - it left a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth and I couldn't really say why......I even spoke about it to friends on Sunday saying how I wished I could have loved it but just didn't. The worst part of the whole thing was when he jumped on the horses backs - took a run up and full pelt jumped - the horse physically dipped under the strain - all that pressure on one part of the back just made me wince..... If the horses weren't telling me a different story then I would have loved every single minute of it...... such a shame.
|
|
auburnalia
Grand Prix Poster
Grand Prix Poster
Take more pictures, you can never have enough.
Posts: 2,681
|
Post by auburnalia on Dec 22, 2009 19:25:52 GMT 1
Varkie - yes I agree the Shetland seemed the least miserable and in parts really looked like he was enjoying himself, bless him!! Its a shame the others didnt give off the same body language or vibe I wonder if there was a difference in their training - I would imagine size would play a part?
|
|
|
Post by megant on Dec 22, 2009 19:38:29 GMT 1
It's interesting to hear others views on this.
SS3- I'm sorry if you thought my comments stemmed from jealousy. I would indeed love to be able to train horse's to be able to perform like that. I still feel that the horse's ears, facial expressions etc concern me.
This is the first time I have seen him and I was disappointed that I didn't come away with a comfortable feeling about it.
|
|
|
Post by nich on Dec 22, 2009 19:38:54 GMT 1
I felt a bit awkward watching this too. I went with 4 other people, 2 loved it and said the horses wouldn't do that if they had been ill-handled. another (IH friendly) person felt the body language was not good, and the flicking of the whip contstantly at the hooves to make the horses wave a front leg aout. what I didn't like was that some of the things the horses did felt humiliating - waving and bowing. I much preferred the work they did moving around. but this post has made me think my friend was quite right in how she read it. very sad now. I love the met police!
|
|
|
Post by cbc on Dec 22, 2009 20:25:34 GMT 1
I saw Jean Francoise Pignon's display a few years ago in Sheffield at the British Open. I came to the same conclusion that a lot of other posters have: amazing display, but what about that body language? You do see horses having a quick bicker sometimes where they are ridden in groups on displays, but not quite the strength of expression I saw in that display, with Jean Francoise. There is no doubt the guy is very talented, and his horses have a very strong bond with him.
It may be the bond is forged in a way we find very uncomfortable. I know I dont have his talent but I am not sure I would want to emulate it at all.
|
|
|
Post by Lynsey on Dec 22, 2009 21:10:18 GMT 1
Interesting debate. I was thinking about this while whatching him at Olympia on Sunday evening and, like Auburnalia, was incredibly impressed by what he has achieved with the horses, but was feeling a bit uncomfortable. I could not put my finger on why though.
Has he written anywhere about his training methods? I would be interested to hear what he has to say about what works. Another thing that struck me was although it did look incredible and he gets them to do some amazing things just using body language and the whip as an aid, I did wonder rather what the point of some of the things were. Felt a bit circus trick like sometimes. A very talented guy though and gorgeous horses.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 21:53:37 GMT 1
More of the same from me. I was there on Sunday and again, was impressed with what he got the horses to do but their ears were consistently right back, heads high and back hollow with tails swishing a lot which doesn't appear to me like a relaxed happy horse.
I spent the whole display wanting to like it but desperately hoping he didn't use violence and not being convinced that he doesn't. I thought it looked a bit like Parelli so hope he uses similar training but in my limited experience of Parelli, I'd say the horses look more relaxed than JFP's do.
|
|
Jaydurh
Advanced Poster
Syrah Belle, Love of my life, My soul mate, You're my best friend.
Posts: 402
|
Post by Jaydurh on Dec 22, 2009 22:45:08 GMT 1
I've got a DVD of his training methods, he signed it when I met him. On the DVD it has no signs of him hitting the horses, just waving the whip at them, my instructor told me to do that to get my horses attention, not to hurt the horse in any way.
|
|
|
Post by specialsparkle3 on Dec 22, 2009 22:45:15 GMT 1
I shall not comment further after this, but having met these horses many times, stroked them, and talked to them, I can say with some degree of certainty , that after more than 40 years of owning and breeding horses, I know that ones that are repeatedly hit around the face and head rapidly become head shy. Francois' horses are not in the least bit head shy. However the person who commented that there appears to be rivalry amongst them has it spot on. They are rivals for his affection.
|
|