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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 1, 2009 10:38:59 GMT 1
Really good points Donnalex - 'I was doing the best I knew at the time' - Monty often uses the Wright Brothers analogy for getting us where we are today with aircraft. Do modern engineers sit around saying 'what a group of numpties those Wright Brothers were!'
In One Dimensional Horsemanship there seems to be a school of thought that Ben Hart is 'All That is Perfect' and 1) That may be absolutely true and 2) I am not suggesting for one moment that Ben has been promoting this idea it's just he's reached that mixed blessing stage for some of 'he who can do no wrong'. If though Ben hadn't been to a Monty Roberts demo in Exeter, come on the 10 week course (as it was then) and if I hadn't being enthusing to his then girlfriend, Emma, about this wonderful book I'd discovered called 'Don't Shoot the Dog' - might he not have been doing the good work he is doing now?
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Post by donnalex on Dec 1, 2009 10:59:42 GMT 1
Before MR anyone who had any tried and trusted methods of getting horses to do what they wanted, or were as it was known a good horseman, they kept it to themselves. They never, ever shared anything that would stop them being seen as fantastic horsemen so that they could buy, sell and train horses for money and so that they would be seen as wonderful 'natural' gifted people who people admired. If you think about it that is very selfish, only a few horses would be sorted out enough in their lifetime but at least it ensured that they got well paid for it. Who cares if everyone else is struggling? Compare that to MR principles. He, with the help of IH, before he dies is trying to improve the lot for horses worldwide by sharing everything he knows. For the good of horses worldwide and people. All the others who are now doing clinics are copying from this type of teaching. They may be doing some good but half of what they know at least started out with IH/MR/KM. We all can make mistakes and learn from them and we can learn from other peoples mistakes too and their successes, which is what most anti Monty people are doing. Flippin Eck they should be thanking him for giving them the info they needed to set up, not dogging him down! I am a qualified chef. If I get Jamie Olivers latest book, take one of his signature recipes, tweak it a bit, add another ingredient, calll it my own and tell everyone else how rubbish Jamie Oliver is, how much respect will I get? Can we count on sending the next bucking nutter to tess and Caroline to fix for us? I dont think even between them they would do anything but teach it how to get people to do what it wants ie feed it and leave it to while away the rest of its life doing nothing. What other horsey organisation is there that allows people to learn for free. Maybe the courses cost money but coming on this free open forum is completely free to anyone and everyone, even those who seek to discredit it.
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Post by wabuska on Dec 1, 2009 11:35:01 GMT 1
Monty appears to have found great personal peace in the decision to share his knowledge in his non for profit organisation.
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Post by wabuska on Dec 1, 2009 11:36:46 GMT 1
Caroline wrote...
'Yann - friends of mine who have followed Monty closer and for much longer have told me he isn't as gentle as he used to be. Some say he has lost the plot and lost the love.'
I don't like that sort of hearsay against anyone Caroline. I'm surprised at you.
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Post by Lorraine L on Dec 1, 2009 11:46:59 GMT 1
Can i lighten the thread without causing offence to anyone ??
Someone takes on a racehorse who has spent his life having his feet picked out from the off side by their grooms. His routine is to stand outside against the stable wall whilst the grooms pick up his feet.
Traditionalist new owner thinks " This won't do at all .. we need to immediately teach him to move away from the wall ( prod, prod .. ) and start all over again with feet picked up in turn and learn all over again.
Parelli student thinks " Well, if he can stand and balance like that, lets teach him a few circus tricks "
Clicker enthusiast thinks " We can get him to move away from the wall with clicker and then start the feet being asked for in rotation. "
IH Student thinks " How lovely that he stands up well and calm. I'll go and have a cup of coffee and start getting him to move around a little in a week or two and then maybe lift some different feet up later " LOL xx
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 1, 2009 12:18:34 GMT 1
I'll be at it all day if I counter every personal attack and argue every point.
Donnalex - as the woman who proposed that the RSPCA hold an annual euthanasia drive for old and unrideable horses, you are not in a great position to lecture me on ethics.
Sure - send me the next bucker. I will get it into a rescue where it will not be asked to tolerate a rider and it's pain origins and issues can be investigated over a sensible time period. Or I will send it to a trainer that uses pain-free methods to tackle bucking. Or maybe I will keep it and enjoy the kind of relationship with it that some could not begin to understand.
To whoever challenged me to share my own work - well I am not a professional horse trainer. I am a loving owner and a very active animal rescue volunteer. I did share a little of my work with Beauty's story - but Zoe first asked that that thread got moved to an obscure part of the board "to remove distraction from Woody's story" (I quote!)...then *appeared to* immediately implement that request in her role as moderator.
(*Edited - but I can produce the PM that gave me that impression if desired.)
If my good work is going to be buried in such obvious manipulations, how am I to share what I do?
Do you want to hear about the 600 lives I saved on Saturday? Or how I caught flu doing it and how ill I feel today as a result? Or maybe about the previous weekends this month when I have been saving horses...or perhaps the dog I saved yesterday...or the numerous dogs in numerous weeks.
Yes I have an agenda. I want to save animals and make the world a better place for them. I want to encourage pain-free and force-free relationships with them. Is that really so evil?
I've had some amazing break throughs with my own horses recently, but I cannot share them here because all anyone wants to do is attack me at the moment. I can't join in other conversations or discussions here either because there are double points being awarded on Caroline-attacks at the moment.
Besides which, it's not a competition. Does someone have to be better than Monty to question the ethics and consistency of a specific technique? Do I have to share and justify my entire life in order for anyone to accept that I am entitled to question the use of pain and force in horse training?
And that's just it. I am NOT throwing anything out with the bath water. I am not generaly attacking Monty. I am asking him to find a way to treat buckers that doesn't involve pain. Consumer power goes a long way.
I will not answer for Tess. We are individuals and not conspiring on this. I don't like pain being used for the training of any animal. I am not aware of Cesar Milan using shock collars. I have seen him use water spray and scent spray collars, but not electric shock collars. If he did, I would describe him as a great trainer who is using a method I cannot approve of, admire or use - just as I would describe Monty.
It seems that this forum can accept no other solution than either agreement with the masses or silence. My insistance on holding on to an opinion is described as haranging etc. I am not insisting that anyone agrees with me. I have made it very clear that I believe we are all entitled to our own opinion. It would seem that some cannot accept that that notion extends to me too.
Let's turn this round. Suppose I do have a horse come into my rescue care that needs to have her bucking issues fixed. (We will have to suspend disbelief for a moment here because I don't believe all horses have to be ridden.) As someone who will not use pain or force, I cannot use the method that Monty has given us to fix buckers. That forces me to look elsewhere for a solution. It is thus a hole in the armoury of Monty methods.
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Post by Dragonmaster on Dec 1, 2009 12:21:48 GMT 1
Lovely Lorraine!
Actually, regarding the 'less than gentle' methods of training like buckstopper and electric shock collars for dogs...sometimes desperate circumstances call for desperate measures. Like having your leg amputated when it's got gangrene, awful thing, painful and disabling, but if you dont have it done...you die. In the right hands, under the right circumstances, and used with care and understanding then there is a place for these measures. And just as an amputee can learn to have a fulfilling and active life after a while of pain, so these training methods can rehabilitate animals that would otherwise be ignored, further abused or PTS.
MTA ..I'm not criticising anyones beliefs, just expressing my own. I'm happy if people disagree.
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Post by mandal on Dec 1, 2009 12:30:45 GMT 1
LOL Lorraine. I'm happy to disagree too AND move on.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 1, 2009 12:30:56 GMT 1
Rather than argue in circles indefinitely, can we agree that it would be better if we could find an effective method to stop a horse from bucking that didn't involve pain/force?
If we can agree on that much, perhaps we can move forward in a positive way.
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Post by Casper on Dec 1, 2009 12:39:06 GMT 1
Intelligent horsemanship to me is about finding the very best way to work with my horses. It doesn't mean slavishly following any one trainer or method of working, but taking the bits which work best for each individual horse and rider combination.
Without this Forum and the many wonderful friends I have made (both on here and in "real life" subsequently) the lives of my horses and myself would be so much poorer.
I don't understand why we can't celebrate that there are many thousands and thousands of people who now do look for another kinder, more thoughtful and more intelligent way to work with their horses as a direct result of the work Monty and many other trainers have done. We don't have to agree with all of their methods to at least give some credit for that, surely?
What is good about this Forum is that despite it being Intelligent Horsemanship's own website, and indeed it's "shop window" to the world, Kelly has always allowed other methods to be discussed. Some Forum's would not be so generous and it would be "their way or the highway".
Horses do their utmost to live in peace both with each other, and with their humans. We should try to do the same. If someone keeps shouting the same thing to me over and over I switch off, I can't and won't hear you.
Most of us on here are open minded enough to consider new ideas and take on board that what works for us might not work for someone else and vice versa.
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Post by mandal on Dec 1, 2009 12:45:50 GMT 1
I will say that it is time that we Humans stopped abusing Horses in the miriad of ways we do... here's to the day horses never feel the need or are put in a position where they have to buck dangerously!! Shall we start with foals? How about asking whether a horse can actually carry a human without damage to varying degrees to the horse, or the effects of stabling 24/7, there's bits, and other gadgets that can become instruments of torture, there's under feeding, over feeding and so on, and on, and on... let's start right back at basics!!! What is a horse, what are IT'S needs...
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 1, 2009 12:49:55 GMT 1
All excellent points mandal!
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Post by Yann on Dec 1, 2009 12:59:29 GMT 1
Even within Monty / IH there are plenty of tools that can be used with a bucking horse short of the buckstopper, sandbags, dummy, aside of the general trust and relationship building which is the real way forward with any troubled horse. I saw numerous buckers worked with at demos before I ever saw a buckstopper produced.
You might not be...
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Post by wabuska on Dec 1, 2009 13:10:11 GMT 1
Hi Caroline. I don't think anyone on this board doubts your credentials, work and deeply held passion for animal resuce, BUT that doesn't mean you can say whatever you like about trainers such as Monty 'losing their love' without being called for it. Donnalex is being painted a monster in your posting, which I know she's not. She loves animals too you know? Tess and yourself make deeply personal attacks like this and then scream blue murder if you're asked to explain. C'mon now.
There are a limited number of places in rescue centres for horses. Surely retraining a bucker to be a rideable happy horse, leaves a space free for a lame or elderly one?
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 1, 2009 13:16:41 GMT 1
I'm all for looking for a better way than the buckstopper!
Rules (IMO) - it's got to be suited to the 'real world' i.e. not one of us who are likely to say 'hey I don't care if my horse does buck he live out the rest of his days in a field' (which a lot of us here would). It's got to be 'real life person' says 'this horse is going to be put down' or you're a groom and you've got to ride the horse and you are frigtened you're going to get injured.
My first thought (if you can stay on) is actually pulling up and circling as the penalty for the horse. I have used that pre-MOnty days. It didn't actually work very well (!) I can't think of a totally positive way to do it i.e. reward when they are not bucking - I think bucking riders off is the ultimate reinforcement for a horse!
You could ride in circles and feed treats I guess. In the Windsor TRec on youtube I use that with Pie just to calm him before the S bend.
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