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Post by mandal on Nov 30, 2009 14:05:13 GMT 1
Just read this quote posted on Heather's Facebook group which I haven't heard before but I really like.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - Buddha-
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Post by heather on Nov 30, 2009 18:51:23 GMT 1
Go Catrin! I love your well thought out and eruditely expressed responses. Agreed, terrific response Catrin!! Heather
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Post by SarahW on Nov 30, 2009 19:27:14 GMT 1
And the joint winners of the Nobel Peace Prize for Horsemanship goes to Catrin and Wendy IHTS. You have really helped me to consolidate my own thoughts and made it absolutely unnecessary for me to try and express them.
Mandal - the Buddha quote is something I have also been trying to formulate myself - I try and examine every bit of horsemanship I see and use to make sure that it fits with my own internal framework/ belief system. That sums it up beautifully.
I can just sit back now and let you do all the work!!
p.s. Mandal - your taking responsibility thread really worked for me too.
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Post by lisap on Nov 30, 2009 20:50:30 GMT 1
There is a lovely clip on youtube somewhere of Monty at a demo loading a horse. throughout the process Monty has the horse 'talk back' to him along the lines of "mr Roberts, I don't think I wanna do this" . It's all done in a light, jokey way, but throughout the whole thing there is the complete recognition that the horse is a thinking being, and there needs to be 'dialogue' between horse and human. I would not describe myself as IH (but then, I would not describe myself as anything in particular), but the recognition that the horse has a brain that can process information is profound in IH, and less profound in some other training methods. I am attracted to any methodology, scientific or otherwise, that realises that animals have far more going on between their ears than many people realise. And without getting too spiritual, I do believe that we need to engage our horses' hearts and souls as well as their brains, which means we need to give them our heart and soul too.
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Post by Zoe RA on Nov 30, 2009 22:26:26 GMT 1
This thread has gone from strength to strength - I am proud to be posting on the same board as such eloquent yet thinking people.
A fabulous example of what IH is all about - whether communicating with horses or another species
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 1, 2009 0:09:48 GMT 1
I'm not convinced this has been a triumph of peace. I have stopped arguing because it is not a level playing field and there is little more to be achieved by continuing the discussion. I remain convinced that the buck stopper uses pain to force a bucking horse to stop bucking. I remain unimpressed that this is a tool of choice for the man I used to have such admiration for and who has built a career on pain-free, force-free training. This is not a matter of being "anti-Monty brigade". I used to be very pro-Monty but it is Monty himself who has disillusioned me. I shall end with a few quotes from Monty's recent emails selling the Online University. I question how consistent these quotes are with the use of a buckstopper. "If we seek to rule through fear, we do it at the expense of trust" "Be gentle, and a friend you'll find" "The greatest strength a man can achieve is gentleness" "Man should have the freedom to choose, and so should the horse" I agree with all these quotes. I find them inconsistent with use of the buck stopper though. All I am asking for is pain-free, force-free horse training. I shouldn't be public enemy number 1 or 2 (tess and I can take turns) for pointing out where I feel there is a failing in this basic, fundamental requirement of ethical horsemanship.
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Post by Yann on Dec 1, 2009 0:25:07 GMT 1
Monty has always used the buckstopper hasn't he? Your disillusion with him is presumably because your ideas and opinions have diverged, not because he's suddenly started doing anything different. You could argue that using a dually is equally inconsistent with those sayings depending on your point of view.
You also appear to assume that everyone on here agrees 100% with everything Monty does, which isn't the case.
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Post by mandal on Dec 1, 2009 0:38:22 GMT 1
Oh well perhaps you should spend more time with the eagles Caroline is all I can say... This thread to me is about a difference in fundamental beliefs that some of us have Caroline. this thread is NOT about who is right or who is wrong... Will you give none of us the respect of our feelings and beliefs??? I have certainly extended respect for your feelings up to now... Beating, bashing and repetative complaining gets no where except anger and resentment Caroline, you of all people should realize that! Tess1 complained about emotive posting... well that has come from both sides and the quote below is a prime example! All I am asking for is pain-free, force-free horse training. I shouldn't be public enemy number 1 or 2 (tess and I can take turns) for pointing out where I feel there is a failing in this basic, fundamental requirement of ethical horsemanship.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 1, 2009 0:53:57 GMT 1
Yann - friends of mine who have followed Monty closer and for much longer have told me he isn't as gentle as he used to be. Some say he has lost the plot and lost the love. I don't know quite what to make of that because I can only judge on the last 6 years. I am not sure whether he is less gentle now or whether I see things now that I might not have noticed or understood before.
For example, I expect a newcomer could fail to appreciate the details of the structure and action of a buck stopper. If such a person saw one used in a demo, all they would probably notice is that one minute a horse is bucking and the next minute the horse is no longer bucking. They conclude that he has done something very clever or magical. Personally, I suspect that is sometimes the intended effect. I don't believe it is always a "use the buck stopper or we shoot him" situation.
I also do realise that not everyone on here agrees with 100% of what Monty does.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 1, 2009 1:11:27 GMT 1
Oh well perhaps you should spend more time with the eagles Caroline is all I can say... This thread to me is about a difference in fundamental beliefs that some of us have Caroline. this thread is NOT about who is right or who is wrong... Will you give none of us the respect of our feelings and beliefs??? I have certainly extended respect for your feelings up to now... Beating, bashing and repetative complaining gets no where except anger and resentment Caroline, you of all people should realize that! Tess1 complained about emotive posting... well that has come from both sides and the quote below is a prime example! All I am asking for is pain-free, force-free horse training. I shouldn't be public enemy number 1 or 2 (tess and I can take turns) for pointing out where I feel there is a failing in this basic, fundamental requirement of ethical horsemanship. I do wish you would stop editing posts. It's hard to discuss with someone who changes what they previously said after the fact. You are taking this entire issue very personally mandal. I really don't understand why. With respect, it has nothing to do with you personally. The cluster of threads have related to Monty's use of the buck stopper. This particular thread relates to Kelly's comment about the "anti-Monty brigade". That implies that complaints about Monty are part of a wider agenda to be anti-Monty. I disagree with that. My complaint is extremely specific to a single tool - the buck stopper. I am trying to stick very firmly to the point of the buck stopper and the use of pain and force in training. Those are clearly defined issues and not emotive by definition, although they make provoke emotion in discussion. I am not beating or bashing. I'm holding my ground and refusing to be bullied or silenced. We all have a right to our opinion, that is not in dispute.
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Post by ashleigh on Dec 1, 2009 7:36:19 GMT 1
I do think that there is a dannger that people feel you have to be either 'for' or 'against' a trainer.
In reality, I don't think people are really that polarised. I don't 'do' join up, and I wouldn't have the skill to use the buckstopper. However, I greatly admire Monty and Kelly's work, and have used many of the techniques in Kelly's books with great success.
Inspired by Heather Moffett, I also use clicker, again successfully. However I am miles away from being a clicker purist, and am not a massive fan or follower of the science of behaviourism.
Truth is, like most people, I dip in and out of techniques to find what works for me and my horses, and what I can achieve within the constraints of my ability, time etc.
Just because I wouldn't use certain aspects of a trainer's methods does not mean I would rubbish that trainer, or reject their work entirely.
Monty's work is about so much more than the buckstopper, why do we have to throw the baby out with the bath water?
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Post by mandal on Dec 1, 2009 7:37:40 GMT 1
Caroline, I take it very personally when someone is bridging a gap between 'Traditional' horsemanship and kinder ways is constantly undermined by people who never have to make these kind of decisions. I take it very personally when I'm spoken to in a condescending manner, over and over again by various people who do not agree with me! To turn things around... Tess1 talked about using an electric shock collar on a dog to stop it chasing sheep. This was OK because she knew it was the best decision at the time for that dog in those circumstances. I could say well, a dog should never be let off a lead when sheep are around anyway so what is the problem? The main issue I have with this is the double standards when it comes to causing what you and her see as pain to remedy or help stop an unwanted (in human terms)and dangerous behaviour. It's alright if Tess1 decides it is alright but Monty is not allowed the same respect. Now that's what I call a double standard. Perhaps dogs should have full body scans, xrays and definitely brain scans before even thinking about causing them what is most definitely pain! If it has nothing to do with me personally then why is it continually discussed on here and why are you arguing... it has nothing to do with you personally either!! Perhaps you like Tess1 should lobby Monty himself. Oh of course... everyone has to know your truth! A full description of the buckstopper, including diagram is in Monty's book along with all his methods so I think it is widely available for people to see and make their own minds up... some of us do not agree on this and it is a case for me when it's a decision I leave to an 'expert' like the sheep chasing dog. I hope to see you lobbying on that issue too btw!! I take it personally when I'm continually bombarded by someone with opposing, rigid views who doesn't ever allow for 'making a difficult decision and standing by it'in their lives. I take it personally when you openly admit to loosing respect for Monty partly based on hearsay but still use this DG to promote her own agenda!!Mind you we all know what lengths you are prepared to go to to help individual horses! Yes that is personal but it is one of my truths. Caroline you have made your point but imo are verging on preaching now and I do object to it most strongly. This thread as you correctly say was about Kelly's response but Tess1 did not return so the thread took on another life and tried to explain that people have fundamentally different philosophies sometimes which can allow for 'real life' scenarios but again you come along and totally dismiss almost everyone who has posted on this thread. Mmmmmm I will edit as I see fit Caroline, mind you there are some things I wish I hadn't edited out! Also imo we are not having a discussion we are having an argument... discussion can only happen when people listen to each other! This DG is for my use as well as yours, you see fit to complain about my editing and tell me indirectly to not get involved with something I personally am not involved in... I see fit to complain about your preaching!! Mta.. Ashleigh has a good point about discussion ending up either 'for or against' a Trainer... I'm getting to the stage where I feel backed into a corner and my opinions and views have been totally disregarded, so reason is begining to go out of the window!!
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 1, 2009 9:33:13 GMT 1
"Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" what an apt old expression! Have newspapers and the 'celebrity' culture made us start to see people as two, or maybe one, dimensional characters? You've got either a 'good' person or a 'bad' person and they do either 'right' or 'wrong'? If we could find some common ground could we start with there are a millions shades of grey in life? i.e. Caesar Milan - I've heard (and of course you can't trust anything 'you hear') that he might use electic shock collars on some dogs. Now of course to most of us that would be absolutely abhorrent - but does that mean he's a 'bad' person and nothing he has of any value?
And back to Mandal's excellent thread about 'taking responsibility', (what a relief it would be if everyone did) it's a prerequisite of being an RA to be able to think for themselves. Sometimes you have moral dilemmas. Sometimes you just have to make the best decision you can in the circumstances.
To sum up with Monty quote that really says it all "I don't want any student to be as good as me - I want every student to be better." All any of us can do is keep working to be the best we can be.
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Post by donnalex on Dec 1, 2009 9:52:11 GMT 1
We should remember that IH is evolving very rapidly and what was really new and ever so kind compared to everyone elses methods five years ago is now the norm for some people. The first demo I ever went Kelly used a Be Nice halter to load a horse. The horse was a big mare who planted against the halter, so the pressure was applied strongly and non stop until the horse came in, after that she loaded willingly and without a rope. Everyone was amazed, up until then the lunge whip and ten men were the method used by most people, so the Be Nice was a huge step in the direction of welfare, now it is seen as too much force. I dare say, in the future, Monty may discover a newer and less direct method of stopping a confirmed bucker from bucking or it may be that when Monty has passed on something 'better' is invented or thought of. But for now it is the kindest method we know of that is guaranteed to work without violence or wearing the horse down so much that it cant buck UNTIL NEXT TIME. But it was MR that got everyone around the world thinking about horses in such a way, MR and KM who set up IH and yet everyone else tries to take a few bits from it, 'improve' it, then call it their own, but better. All I know is ten years ago a confirmed back breaking broncer or a totallly dangerous non loader was worth nothing to anyone except the meat man and the gadget of choice was the bullet. The bullet stops all manner of unwanted behaviour. I took a confirmed rearer to the hunt kennels about twelve years ago for a very upset lady who was in floods of tears and heartbroken and it has never reared since!
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Post by rj on Dec 1, 2009 10:23:28 GMT 1
Sometimes putting right what people have c0cked up with horses, HAS to be addressed in a way some people feel goes against that trainers own creeds & beliefs. I happen to believe if that happens, they don't enjoy doing it, they get it done for the good of the horse and to give that horse a chance of a happy & pain-free future. Cos that's the sort of person I am, and I've lived long enough to learn (at last) to trust my own judgement. Some people don't believe that is the case. Fine, we all make decisions based upon our own personalities, our experiences and our inclination. We have our own truths, and those truths can be challenged, they may change and they may develop. But I am with Mandal here, NO-ONE has the right to bang on & on & on & on & on, trying to harangue and browbeat others to their point of view. If we don't agree with - specifically - Tess or Caroline, it may not actually be because we are stupid, misguided, blinkered or ill-informed. we may be of course, but if so, you're definitely NOT going to get anywhere with us, are you?! Thanks to Kelly for getting involved with the discussion. Baby/bathwater analogy is exactly right. Monty doesn't think he is infallible, he doesn't think he's the best horseman in the world. But what he is and what he does is out there for all to see, and if you can't see any positives in it, I feel very sorry for you. If you don't agree with what he does, fine, but why hang around on a site that is set up for us to discuss freely & openly express ourselves, just to make aggressive/adversarial comments? If you're going to hang around, lets hear more about you, what you have done, where you are coming from, your horses, your POSITIVES. I for one am now going to say I have had enough of the NEGATIVES. I've heard, I've understood, and I have made up my own mind. By virtue of the fact that you are still with us, I hope you have realised that the forum is a patient, trusting, friendly and open place to be. We have our strengths, and thos eare not bigoted and unthinking acceptance of any-darn-thing. You can abuse that or you can embrace it - your choice guys. Keep your eyes and your hearts open.
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