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Post by Kelly Marks on Oct 25, 2009 18:27:54 GMT 1
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Post by Del Boy on Oct 25, 2009 18:38:54 GMT 1
So, what are the alternatives then & why are they branded in the first place?
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Post by sunnylynn11 on Oct 25, 2009 18:41:29 GMT 1
Why cant they freezemark then  |
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Post by SarahW on Oct 25, 2009 20:55:33 GMT 1
I am not in favour of hot branding BUT I would point out that freezebranding requires each of four/ five brands to be held on to a pony for 30 seconds each. This just isn't possible with wild foals and that period of handling would traumatise them more. It's the poor handling that traumatises these foals and forcing headcollars/ halters on to them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2009 20:59:57 GMT 1
Sarah you have said exactly what I was going to say. is it absolutely necessary to identify each animal, that's the question I'd be asking.
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Post by SarahW on Oct 25, 2009 21:45:45 GMT 1
Very few brands are readable on the Exmoor ponies in anything but the height of summer - they have such thick coats and many of the brands get smudged. Pony deaths are relatively rare on Exmoor anyway and there are few herds which are actually mixed (unlike Dartmoor and the New Forest). What we really need are some really good microchip readers which can read chips at a good distance.
Having recently visited Chagford sales, I was really impressed with how quickly and accurately the vet on site microchipped the wild foals as they came one by one through a crush. I wouldn't have thought it possible to do it so well and if we relied on microchips alone (ignoring for now the theft deterrent effect of a brand) there would be absolutely no need to force halters on these ponies or to wrap the rope around something solid until they are subdued by pain.
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Post by SarahW on Oct 25, 2009 21:46:41 GMT 1
Should add that I hated almost everything else about Chagford sales. Very very poor handling there and ponies overcrowded in the pens.
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Post by Mrs Craig on Oct 26, 2009 10:15:38 GMT 1
Very few brands are readable on the Exmoor ponies in anything but the height of summer - they have such thick coats and many of the brands get smudged. Completely agree. Even in the height of summer, Chloe's wasn't readable at anything more than a few metres at most. You wouldn't know she's branded, now. The branding points are also the points were she itches the most, I assume due to the scar tissue. In the summer, this is where she would rub to the point of wounding herself if left unrugged. |
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Post by donnalex on Oct 26, 2009 10:30:19 GMT 1
An Exmoor Pony I had was stud bred and therefore well handled before he was branded.
He was a dream to handle and had no problems at all with the brand area.
Although I dont agree with hot branding without pain relief I dont think that being branded is as bad as being branded as a frightened unhandled foal. Even with pain relief at the time of branding they must carry on burning and hurting long after they have been released.
I think it is time to stop the breeding of unhandled ponies. If the ponies were all relatively easy to deal with their brands would not need to be read with binoculars from half a mile away. They could have freeze brands, microchips, the lot.
Hill breeders, commoners, mountain breeders are all the same. They want a crop of foals to cash in every autumn without putting any financial or physical effort in. Easy money in other words.
Why should there be different passport rules for feral breeders? The very ponies who are more likely to end up in the food chain are the ones without passports.
It is an offence to have an animal in need of vet treatment and not provide it, it should therefore be an offence to have an animal that is untreatable due to its wildness. Handling them for routine worming and foot trimming would be less traumatic and the ponies would be worth more at weaning time.
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Post by paulking on Oct 26, 2009 11:36:12 GMT 1
Hi everybody I've been an IH member a long time but have only just joined the Forum after having appeared on BBC Spotlight last week. My wife Cilla and I have kept horse for nearly 40 years but for the last 7 years we have been working full time with wild/unhandled/traumatised ponies at the people4ponies organisation. We wrote the following piece last year and are very interested in peoples views on this subject as we feel that we are now in a position to do something about it.
We'll try to answer any questions raised.
Identification procedures on British native ponies -
a point of view by the people4ponies organisation. February 2008
Any identification procedure that is undertaken whilst the animal is still wild, if it has to be forcibly restrained, will result in that animal suffering emotional trauma to some degree. If the animal is turned away after the procedure this trauma is likely to worsen in direct proportion to the amount of time it remains unhandled.
Typically, and without prior sympathetic handling, a young pony is separated from its mother. It immediately suffers acute separation anxiety. They call to each other. The youngster is restrained by predators, usually men. A headcollar may be forced on and the pony may be tightly held around its neck or legs. The pony may be held by its tail or dragged along by it. Sometimes the nose is grasped or the ears twisted. The animal is now instinctively in a survival situation. It may make violent and physically damaging escape attempts or, more likely, display periods of frozen watchfulness - a terror-induced state of apparent calm. If it is then branded, ear notched or ear tagged it will almost certainly suffer pain, thereby justifying the fear. Sometimes, as happens in many brandings or double ear notching, the trauma is repeated on another part of the body. The pony’s acute awareness will register any accompanying sights, sounds or scents and his capacity to remember will mean that at any time in the future one of these experiences, such as the sight or sound of particular clothing, the presence of men or of more than one person is likely to trigger an extreme fear reaction.
The pony is then released. His perception is that he has escaped. If allowed to, the fact that he returns to his mother and comfort suckles is not an indication that ‘he is OK now!’
We believe that the very first contact between pony and human must result in a positive effect on the animal. It is the basis for co-operation and achievement no matter what use the animal is intended for.
A young pony who is being sold on as a future ride or drive is clearly going to have a head start and achieve a much better price if he can be approached, headcollared, led, groomed, loaded and have his feet attended to.
The alternative, seen all too often following identification procedures especially on semi- feral ponies, is an animal showing extreme nervousness (especially of men), who cannot be easily caught or touched and who may attempt to defend himself - in short, a remedial animal who may take months or even years of rehabilitation to undo the damage caused on one single day.
It is possible, with the right training, to tame a truly wild and untouched pony in a short space of time - often less than an hour and sometimes in only minutes.
If it can be indisputably proven that wild ponies need to be artificially identified, then micro-chipping is the least traumatic procedure but to avoid emotional damage even this must only be carried out following initial sympathetic handling which must also continue, after the micro-chipping, for as long as is necessary to enable the animal to reach its full potential.
© people4ponies 2008
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Post by mandal on Oct 26, 2009 11:45:29 GMT 1
A warm welcome to the DG Paul. Great piece, this bit has made me think especially. Has this been demonstrated, observed/ It's something I had not thought of before so will be interested in your and others thoughts on this. Thinking here whether post traumatic stress disorder in humans has any relevance? If the animal is turned away after the procedure this trauma is likely to worsen in direct proportion to the amount of time it remains unhandled. |
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Post by paulking on Oct 26, 2009 12:10:48 GMT 1
Thank you for friendly comments!
These observations are from our experience in dealing with many ponies over 7 years, sometimes having them with us at home, sometimes turned away after commencing rehab; ponies that have been branded, ear notched, ear tagged, inspected but not branded, gelded but not inspected, stallions and mares and truly untouched as well.
We have had ponies, previously traumatised, that we began on the rehab. process and on turning away (to concentrate on others) appeared to not regress but to build on their positive experience with us. It seems as if when a bad thing was the last thing that happened to a pony, the fear increased the longer it was turned away. Conversly if the last thing that happened was good, then the pony would build on that - thinking time maybe?
We are not scientists and have no scientific explanations for what we have observed - we can only tell you what we believe based on our experience.
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Post by mandal on Oct 26, 2009 12:15:55 GMT 1
Observation is good for me. Thankyou for responding. Gosh another aspect to consider for me now.  |
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Post by jackiechurchill on Oct 26, 2009 15:24:36 GMT 1
I am a breeder of Exmoor Ponies. Numbers 8, 9 and 10 were inspected and microchipped on Saturday. I chose not to brand the foals in my herd. We also have 12 hot branded adults. In 6 of these animals the brand is fully readable in summer. None of them have brands that are readable in winter months. Which is where the argument that brands are needed to identify injured animals falls down at the first hurdle. I think it is time to stop the breeding of unhandled ponies. If the ponies were all relatively easy to deal with their brands would not need to be read with binoculars from half a mile away. They could have freeze brands, microchips, the lot. I'm afraid I can't agree there. Ponies used to people would behave very differently. In extreme cases ponies that approach people can be very dangerous. The wild population of Exmoors is extremely important. When I look to breed foals I first refer back to the wild population to see if I am breeding a pony true to type. It is important that we support the moorland breeders in maintaining the numbers of Exmoor Ponies that roam the moor. I feel that it is very difficult to say whether a freeze brand is more/less painful than a hot brand. It is after all 'a cold burn'. The word 'freeze' makes us think it is a painless procedure. There is no way I would like to see hot branding replaced with freeze branding. Microchips are extremely reliable. At least in the first instance I would like to see no Exmoor Ponies born up country branded. As Paul says in the video both the British Veterinary Assocation and the British Equine Veterinary Assocation have called for hot branding of Equines to be ceased altogether. |
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Post by portiabuzz on Oct 26, 2009 15:56:02 GMT 1
Thanks for posting the info Paulking and welcome from me!
IMHO I would like to see no branding at all, as it causes long lasting problems that are hard to undo
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