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Post by clara81 on Nov 21, 2009 12:01:42 GMT 1
I'm sure an awful lot of foals of all breeds and types are weaned in the ways mentioned and some even more traumatically. The issue here is supposed to be about branding. As Jackie says there are plenty of examples of terrible handling on livery yards and at shows up and down the country. Most people on forums like this will have one or two horses on a livery yard for their own pleasure but a lot of the people who breed semi-wild native ponies do it for a living and it is just not feasible to handle them like livery horses. I've never seen the ponies handled or kept year-round on Exmoor so I just don't feel I am qualified to comment, neither will most people be. It's not fair to keep attacking the EPS and Exmoor breeders because they don't keep and handle ponies the way riding schools/livery yards think is the "right "way. If you think branding is wrong, fine, but that should be all this is about. I think it's wrong to keep horses locked in stables for hours at a time under piles of rugs and only turned out in a sand school all winter but I wouldn't call for it to be banned.
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Post by SarahW on Nov 21, 2009 18:59:42 GMT 1
I'm sorry but I don't think it is possible to separate the two issues. In my opinion, and I have worked with 100's of semi-feral foals of all breeds now, it is the manhandling that causes the problem and not the branding itself - not that I approve of the branding. This is going to sound very strong, but it is the violation of their heads and the force used in jamming a headcollar/ halter on them and then tying them up to something solid that really mucks them up - sometimes beyond repair. They see it as an attack just as they might see being burned as an attack. I very much doubt that banning branding on its own will solve the problem as the ponies are just as traumatised by the handling.
It would be far better if they weren't handled at all before they were sold. Manhandling them sets them up to fail. People do need to know what they are doing when they buy a semi-feral foal and love and time alone will not always bring them round. The new owner is having to undo not just their wildness but the poor handling they have received.
JACKIE - judging by the age of your mare, I don't think she is one that would have undergone the training techniques that I instigated at the MMT. I say that particularly because I have only ever worked with one filly at the Centre and she would be too young to be yours as would any that have gone through the centre since they started to go it alone. The techniques that I honed at the EPS would only have been used for the last four seasons. All of the fosterers have commented on how much quieter and relaxed the foals have been that have come through since we started using the techniques described in my book.
Back to Clare - Considering that it sometimes as little as two hours to take a foal from terrified to tame, I'd have thought anyone would think it was worth doing as in the long run it makes the foals more attractive to buyers.
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Post by paulking on Nov 21, 2009 23:53:20 GMT 1
Spot on Sarah
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Post by portiabuzz on Nov 22, 2009 2:20:22 GMT 1
Back to Clare - Considering that it sometimes as little as two hours to take a foal from terrified to tame, I'd have thought anyone would think it was worth doing as in the long run it makes the foals more attractive to buyers.
wise words sarah
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Post by SarahW on Nov 22, 2009 9:34:37 GMT 1
I have been thinking about this overnight (couldn't sleep) and I can see and accept that you stand more chance of getting branding stopped if you treat it as an isolated cause. With any luck it could be widened out to any form of mutilation so that ear notching could be banned too. Sadly, I don't think the Government would rule out ear tagging since they don't understand the difference between horses and other stock and ear-tagging is compulsory for cows and sheep.
Nevertheless, I think all of us have to realise that TEN (here choose any number!) wrongs DON'T make a right. I think it's all to easy to turn our backs on what happens to semi-feral ponies because they are ten a penny and the issue seems so huge. I don't think you can compare what happens to these ponies in the hands of some of their breeder/ commoners/ farmers to what happens in the vast majority of livery yards. I think most people would be stunned if they saw it first hand. Things have calmed down a lot at the drifts on the New Forest but no-one should be fooled into thinking that any pony that they buy from the sales or even direct from the breeder is raw and untouched. There's a lot of undoing to be done.
To me this issue is AS important as the blue tongue/ rollkur debate and I have been quietly working away at it for years. More recently I have been more outspoken and am tentatively prepared to put my head above the parapet with Paul and Cilla. It's difficult when you live in an area where these sort of things are commonplace and I have to confess that I am paranoid - but possibly with good cause. I am off to the sales on Thursday and feel as if I need to go incognito.
My top ten list of horse abuse would include: manhandling of semi-feral foals; hyperflexion of dressage horses, haynets - yes, haynets!; overtight flash nosebands and cranked nosebands, hitting other than a tap as a signal; badly fitting saddles.....and so on.
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Post by mandal on Nov 22, 2009 10:43:17 GMT 1
I Sadly, I don't think the Government would rule out ear tagging since they don't understand the difference between horses and other stock and ear-tagging is compulsory for cows and sheep. This is a difficult one Sarah. My belief is horses and other animals are not that dissimilar in their eyes, imo it's our eyes that see horses differently and in this Country they are 'used' differently. Other cultures treat them as stock and farm them for food. I wonder if this is where the Government have to come from or create an 'elite animal' that isn't a human. Mind you dogs have their own laws don't they... I suppose I'm saying that I don't see any major change of thinking in humans so I suppose changing what we can for the better is better than nothing. Once something is no longer standard practice people do eventually look back in horror. Chicken and egg springs to mind. Don't know what I'm saying here tbh Lol!! Perhaps we should have a thread on our 10 worst and one on our ten best practices in horse care? Mind you it may be too persoanal and imflammatory a topic!
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Post by jamesb on Nov 23, 2009 0:14:53 GMT 1
I wonder if this is where the Government have to come from or create an 'elite animal' that isn't a human. IMO presently we have a Government that (a) doesn't understand the countryside and those that live there, and (b) makes absolutely no attempt to try. DEFRA are a total waste of space. Of course, this is in no way related to the lack of Labour voters in the shires.... ;D
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Post by paulking on Nov 26, 2009 15:54:36 GMT 1
This is a very interesting link from 2002 - very interesting discussion from within the Exmoor Pony Society about the problems of hot branding and its ineffectiveness. There are also some very interesting comments from vets and welfare professionals. home.btconnect.com/gibfarm/epic/issue4/peps2.htm
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Post by paulking on Jan 7, 2010 18:53:00 GMT 1
**Progress Update**
We have just had confirmation today that the Scottish Government are doing a consultation with equine organisations and individuals to obtain comments on their plans to make the hot branding of equines in Scotland illegal. They have suspended the issuing of any more licences pending the consultation results.
Below is the press release that outlines the consultation. There are contact details at the end of the letter for those who wish to contribute.
We are very grateful to Bill Wilson MSP who raised the matter in Parliament to bring it to the attention of Richard Lochhead, Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment.
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Post by paulking on Jan 7, 2010 18:55:03 GMT 1
23rd December 2009
Dear Sir or Madam
HOT BRANDING OF EQUINE ANIMALS
As you may be aware section 20 of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006 makes it an offence to carry out a procedure on a protected animal which involves interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of an animal. The Prohibited Procedures on Protected Animals (Exemptions) (Scotland) Regulations 2007 exempt certain procedures from this general prohibition and one of these exempted procedures is the hot branding of equine animals for identification purposes. However, hot branding of equine animals is only permitted in Scotland where a specific authorisation has been issued by Scottish Ministers.
Since these Regulations came into effect specific authorisations have only been requested for a number of Exmoor ponies.
Since July this year, it has been a requirement for all horses and ponies to be microchipped and this has considerably weakened the case to allow hot branding. In addition, the British Veterinary Association (BVA) issued a recent policy statement which stated:
“Hot branding is generally carried out without analgesia and is undoubtedly a painful process. The BVA believe that the continued use of hot branding as a means of identifying certain breeds is unacceptable and should be banned on welfare grounds”.
This statement goes further than the statement issued by the British Equine Veterinary Association, who wished to see hot branding of equine animals “phased out”.
As a consequence, we have been reviewing our policy which has allowed hot branding of certain horses and ponies under the restrictions of a specific authorisation. Richard Lochhead, the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment, has indicated that he would like to remove the exemption for hot branding of equine animals, making the hot branding of any equine animal in Scotland an offence. This will mean that the Prohibited Procedures on Protected Animals (Exemptions) (Scotland) Regulations 2007 will need to be amended.
It is a requirement of section 20 (6) of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006 that before any Regulation is made under section 20, Scottish Ministers must consult “such persons appearing to them to represent relevant interests….as they consider appropriate”.
Thus this letter is designed to inform you of the Scottish Government’s intention to lay an amending Regulation in Parliament and to allow you the opportunity to make your views known to us. In the meantime, no further authorisations to hot brand any equine animal in Scotland will be issued.
If you wish to comment on our plans to remove the exemption for hot branding, thus making it an offence to hot brand any equine animal in Scotland, please send your respond by 28 February 2010 to the following email address: animal.health@scotland.gsi.gov.uk Or by post to:
Pam Kennedy Animal Welfare Branch Room 350 Pentland House 47 Robb’s Loan EDINBURGH EH14 1TY
Yours faithfully
Ian W Strachan Head of Animal Welfare Branch
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