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Post by paulking on Nov 17, 2009 18:23:45 GMT 1
It is really encouraging that people are beginning to think about and question WHY branding happens. Up until now, it seems that the EPS have just given reasons for why they brand but no-one has actually questioned them anymore about it! We continually hear that the branding is for the welfare of the ponies but in reality it is causing welfare issues, not resolving them. We’ve heard all the reasons why the EPS brand their ponies and their arguments just don’t stand in practice or theory – branding isn’t necessary for any Exmoor ponies – whether they are semi-feral (“wild”) or domesticated. It’s become a tradition for breeders on Exmoor and it’s great that in other parts of the country, people are questioning that tradition and seeing that micro-chipping alone is an effective means of identification. If you own ponies – wild or domesticated, you are expected to be responsible for their welfare. In our work over the last 7 years we have had to develop ways to work with and rehabilitate semi feral ponies…including branded, registered Exmoor ponies. We have a pony here at the moment who cannot be handled…he is typical of many of the other ponies we have helped - they have been so frightened by their experiences of people that now we have to put a lot of care and attention into rehabilitating them. It’s really frustrating - what these ponies have been through is completely unnecessary. The problem doesn’t go away for them, or us, with the passing of October. BBC footage from news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8319577.stm This clip at 0.00/2.22 secs. This foal is clearly distressed and even screams as it is pushed over and hoisted by its tail to be pinned against the barrier. Our semi feral pony Misty having her routine check up. She does not go anywhere near people out on the reserve but she can be checked over, including having her feet rasped, all with the least possible stress to her. Breeders of Exmoor ponies do have an alternative to their handling methods – we developed basic handling for our semi feral ponies. Until the breeders on Exmoor inspect and brand their foals, those young ponies are truly untouched. If breeders were interested in learning our methods and were prepared to provide their ponies with sympathetic basic handling (which is usually a quick process for untouched ponies), they would have ponies that stay away from people out on the moor but when drifted into a small area (using our particular methods) they would be able to headcollar the ponies, inspect and micro-chip them, all with the minimum of stress to the pony. They would also be able to give them medical attention or see to their feet at any future occasion…or scan a micro-chip! If Exmoor breeders could learn to handle their ponies sympathetically, they could ensure the welfare of their ponies, but just as importantly, if a pony is to be sold into a domestic environment, they will then fetch better prices. It is much easier to train ponies who are without trauma and extreme fear of people, especially if they are required to cope with the everyday situations expected of riding and driving ponies. Surely this is a much better deal for both the humans and the ponies?
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Post by SarahW on Nov 17, 2009 19:02:02 GMT 1
Welcome to my brick wall too. I have to satusfy myself with only reaching the second owners of all these ponies as (most of) the New Forest commoners are not interested in learning kinder techniques because they are convinced that there is nothing wrong with the things that they do. I ran a free demonstration for the people who go on the New Forest Equine Directory and one commoner brought me her foal to work with and promptly sat round the corner so that she couldn't see or hear a thing. I have given up trying to change things from the inside. However they are not all like that and I have had some successes in getting through. Indeed, I have taught a few Exmoor Commoners when I used to work with the Exmoor Pony Centre (and one burst into tears and said she didn't know that it could be done like that). Its good to know that the same technique is still being taught at the Exmoor Pony Centre although sadly, all of those foals will have been tied up to be branded and inspected before they ever reach the course.
We need to demonstrate that it is at least 10 times easier to train a truly unhandled semi-feral foal than a manhandled one.
Incidentally I don't think a lot of the conservation schemes handle their ponies any better, often strapped for cash, they just treat them like stock.
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carol
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 3,084
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Post by carol on Nov 17, 2009 20:09:07 GMT 1
The thing is, and this is probably going to sound a bit naive but anyway...when I lived on Exmoor I noticed that the Exmoor herds are all kept in different areas of the moor, and seperate from each other. Separated by a series of cattle grids, which appear to be very effective in keeping the herds apart. It's not like the old days when the herds roamed further than they do now, the herds are all kept on well segregated commons. A good stockman, or horse owner, should know his or her location of their animals, they would be, in an ideal world, checking them regularly, bringing them in occasionally, but most of all knowing them individually. In which case there is absolutely no excuse for branding them..if you breed these ponies and are passionate about them as a rare breed then you should know your stallion, your mares and your youngsters, without having to burn an ID onto their skin.
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Post by paulking on Nov 18, 2009 21:50:28 GMT 1
Carol, you are absolutely right! None of the brand marks are necessary. Retired veterinary lecturer and EPS inspector Alex Copland can recognise each of his 44 Exmoor ponies without referring to brands and he is supporting MSP Dr Bill Wilson, who incidentally has a further update on his website, take a look at www.billwilsonmsp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=755&Itemid=1I think it is pretty obvious that there is no reason to brand domestic Exmoors but some people haven’t quite grasped the fact that it is unnecessary for the semi feral ponies too. As you rightly point out, on Exmoor, the different herds are kept on separate areas of moorland but the EPS insists that one of the 3 brand marks is a herd number! If an accident occurs or a walker notices a pony with an injury, the location of the person at that time will be the direct link to who owns the pony in question, no brand mark is needed. The diamond shape brand mark called “the Exmoor Star” on the shoulder of an Exmoor pony indicates that the pony has been accepted and registered in the Exmoor Pony Society stud book. The “Exmoor Star” is not an aid to location, ownership or individual identification and is therefore completely unnecessary. Breeders are very careful about which animals they keep out on the moor. They only keep registered ponies for breeding because the society wants to keep the breed as “pure” as possible. The compulsory microchip and accompanying passport contain all necessary information. The EPS use the excuse that the number on the rump of a pony will help them to find it if it’s involved in an accident. The number on the rump of a pony is not a GPS to the pony’s location – the best guide will always be the location of the accident or sighting. Whether an injury is visually apparent or not, in order to help or check the pony, it will usually not be possible to get close or help them on the moor. All the ponies would need to be drifted in and then with current handling methods, the pony will be too frightened to be easily helped. In terms of stockmanship, if a pony is lame and the breeder goes out to look for it, then knowing the number isn’t essential – the one they are looking for will be the pony that is lame! If a breeder wants to monitor individual herd members for breeding effectiveness, identification through micro-chipping rather than branding would improve the identification of ponies (giving year round accuracy) and would improve the accuracy of records as at the moment mistakes are made because ponies have unreadable brand marks. At the moment the branding of ponies is justified as “necessary suffering”; when you consider the need, effectiveness and impact, does it seem necessary?
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Post by portiabuzz on Nov 19, 2009 12:59:26 GMT 1
i do think its a poor excuse to say its to help locate them... Saw on countryfile (i think) that the herds were separated in specific areas anyway, because they had a warden on horseback riding round checking them & she knew where they were! Think this was exmoor, but not sure, it was a while ago...
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Post by SarahW on Nov 19, 2009 14:36:31 GMT 1
If you want a typical attitude then look no further than Marion Saunders, Chairman of the Dartmoor Livestock Protection Society in her letter to the Horse and Hound.
"I support the Exmoor Pony Society in its defence of hot branding of ponies and question whether the charity People4Ponies can establish a positive link between hot branding and "traumatised" ponies. During 40 years of pony welfare work on Dartmoor I have yet to come across a single pony with a behavioural problem linked to hot branding. But I have seen plenty taht, once sold off the moor, have turned difficult through bad handling by inexpereinced owners. A brand is an essential for moorland ponies so ownership can be established without them being rounded up and handled. For pony welfare reasons, identification at a distance is a must"
I doubt the Horse and Hound would be bothered to print my reply but this would be it:
I would support People4Ponies in their statement that ponies are traumatised by hot branding particularly because of the manhandling that they receive at the time. I have met scores of ponies that have been traumatised by this handling and can state that ponies that are simply untouched (but semi-feral) are far easier (10 times) to bring round than those that have been manhandled. She may not have met any with behavioural problems but that will be because she has probably continued to use forceful methods to train them such as "swinging" and trapping them to put the halter on. Eventually yes, a foal would be tamed this way but at what cost to it's mental and physical health. To the rest of the horse owning community, these methods are unthinkeable and not acceptable.
It's easy to blame the next owner who may not have the facilities or heart to continue to use these forceful methods. Many don't realise exactly what their ponies have been subjected to before they get them. Halter broken does not mean halter trained and happy to be caught. The reason why so many of these ponies end up going for meat is that they don't appeal to those people who do know exactly how much work will be involved in bringing them round and undoing all the brutal aspects of the way that they have been treated before. They set them up to fail.
I can see that at the moment there is an argument for branding for identification at a distance for ponies on Dartmoor and the New Forest but if we can track and identify elephants and dolphins all over the world, I can't see (other than there being no financial incentive) why it is beyond the whit of man to come up with a microchip reader that can read a microchip from a distance. the beauty of that would be that the agister or person checking the ponies, could have all the details about that pony at their fingertips in a couple of seconds. I absolutely agree with Paul that the Exmoors, in their seperate herds do not need a Herd number, certainly don't need the diamond just to prove eligibility and don't need an individual number. Brands are just badges.
I think it shows the mentality of some of the Dartmoor commoners when they say that they have to ear notch their ponies so that they can identify them when they have already got a brand on them that is the size of a helicopter landing pad.
All of that said, Paul, I think we need to widen this out to include all of the handling not just the brand. The pony in the film is screaming because of the restraint and proximity of humans not because he knows that he is about to be branded. Although as Jackie says, for the second brand he will know.
Mark Rashid says "Never try to teach a pig to sing - it's not possible and it annoys the pig." You might just get one to be able to mime though.
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Post by paulking on Nov 19, 2009 19:44:28 GMT 1
Sarah, thank you for your support – we didn’t realise there was a letter in H&H until you mentioned it, so we’ll go and find it! Are you sending it to H&H? You make some really good points so we’d hope they would publish it. We absolutely agree that the handling needs to be addressed too and we make this clear in everything we write. As usual the media are looking for the controversy and so they always choose the branding rather than discussing the handling, even though we always explain about the handling and send pictures to show what we mean. We are also keen to make sure that when branding is banned, it doesn’t mean that ponies are ear-notched or subjected to other traumatising identification procedures instead. We welcome anyone who is interested in learning our methods, from whatever background they are from. There was also an article in the Daily Telegraph today – again we outlined the alternative handling to the journalist but disappointingly, it was omitted from the article. The link is www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/outdoors/6600867/Exmoor-ponies-at-centre-of-controversial-branding-issue.htmlAny comments from anyone about Rex Milton’s (President of the EPS) quote “"If a hot brand traumatises a pony, then what happens when a farrier puts a hot shoe onto a horse?” ??
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Post by SarahW on Nov 19, 2009 21:16:54 GMT 1
Oh please tell me he didn't say that?! Hell's teeth.
It's time all the charities started to really look at the way these ponies get handled - if the public saw it they'd have a fit. It's just not acceptable. Honestly, it is much better in the New Forest although they still have their moments. On the whole the ponies are not tied up to brand them and there are less than a handful that brand them in two places.
Thanks for sending me your report Paul and thank you for taking this up. To be honest I had lost heart and felt rather vulnerable having published my book. It's a very close community round here and I'm not making any friends. The only pony society that showed any interest (and strong interest) at my book was the Welsh Cob and Pony Society - very refreshing. You'd think that people who felt that their traditions were being threatened would embrace the opportunity to lead the way and prove that they could move on rather than have it forced upon them.
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Post by jackiechurchill on Nov 20, 2009 12:30:16 GMT 1
I do wish the EPS would lead the way. At least in the first instance by banning branding in up country foals and then looking at the branding of the feral foals.
I read all the handling debate with interest however. I cannot see a way round the "rough" handling given the need for inspection. Inspections are meant to take place with the foals mother and as such I don't believe that it is fair to keep mum and foal in while some sympathetic handling of the foal takes place.
I have bought Exmoors that have wild mothers. These foals were in a place where although mums (Exmoor born) would try to stay well away from people the foals were (by the time it came to branding) approachable by people. They could all be touched, stroked all over and have their feet picked up. The only thing missing was having a halter put on. Yet when it came to inspection time they reacted strongly to the strange situation despite being used to people and the basic handling involved and they reacted before a brand went anywhere near them.
One of my own foals who has had contact with people and feet picked up from day one still reacted to being inspected! She was not branded. Strange people and a strange situation yet I don't think she was 'traumatised' by the event and has probably come on for the experience.
Exmoor foals must continue to be inspected and so there is no easy way round that particular problem. It takes a good while to get a foal used to a headcollar and more time again to get it used to being tied up or held for a stranger to look at.
At the end of the day the moorland herds are very important and we must not alienate the people involved in their care. Many of these ponies go on to do great things. And as a responsible breeder I look to the moorland ponies to make sure those I am breeding are true to type.
One more thing. I have one mare who is my most problematic. This mare went from breeder to Moorland Mousie and then to two other (knowledgeable) homes before she was four years old and came to me. She is wary and difficult at times and I believe strongly that it is the multiple change of scenery that did this mare more harm than anything the breeder did at inspection time. If the ponies can go straight from breeder into a stable knowledgeable home and remain there through their early years then this is perhaps the most important thing. To this end I agree with part of the H+H letter. It is not just branding/early handling that can make a huge difference to a ponies life.
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Post by SarahW on Nov 20, 2009 12:46:05 GMT 1
I think that it is the headcollar bit that is significant. Having it forced on the first time, even momentarily, sets them up to not want their head touched again and to know what headcollars are all about. Where foals have not had a headcollar on and they are touched first and then have their headcollars put on from the back rather than over the nose, they are completely different - time and time again. It's so important that there should be no restraint on the headcollar for the first few times that it is put on and that pressure comes from a lead rein and not the headcollar itself.
I don't think it is necessary to inspect when they are with the mother. They could be microchipped at that time - going through a race- and inspected later. If ponies continue to be manhandled for the inspection and tied up to something solid, I don't believe that taking away the branding will change a thing.
Incidentally, ponies that have been through the MMT may have only had two weeks training before they go to a foster or conservation home. That's not a lot of time to learn a lifetimes lesson and of course they regress - especially if they meet inconsistency. If all the people that took on semi-feral foals learned about advance and retreat (what I call touch and move away) and did everything the same way that they do at MMT, they would continue to make progress.
I always find with Exmoor ponies that one person is a person and two is a gathering and it always worried them.
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Post by jackiechurchill on Nov 20, 2009 13:06:07 GMT 1
Ooops I didn't mean that bypassing Moorland Mousie would have been a good thing! However it must be confusing for the foals to get a lot of handling and then go back to almost nothing (in the case of some of the foals) and my mare is probably an example of this. I think with the nature of Exmoors they are very quick to revert to wild and yes early sympathetic handling may mean they respond a little quicker next time but the instincts are very close to the surface. Consistency and frequency is extremely important if the ponies are to make long term well rounded individuals.
The foals could be microchipped and hair sampled in a race and inspected later. They would then still need to be abruptly weaned before handling. Anything new is scary. Add pain (hot branding) and the bad experience is much less reversible. So many questions and not necessarily a right answer. What I was trying to say was I don't think 100% change is viable. The ponies ARE essentially stock to the herd owners. And if we ask too much we may lose these herds. An utter disaster waiting to happen.
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Post by clara81 on Nov 20, 2009 15:02:07 GMT 1
I've had quite a few Welsh foals that have been literally herded in to an eclosed space with the wild mare, grabbed by two or three men, headcollar on, dragged onto horsebox and driven away. I can quite honestly say that they have been no more or less difficult to deal with than foals I've bred myself and done the softly softly way. I think it's fair to say branding up country is unneccesary but if you start trying to tell traditional pony breeders how to handle their foals they're just gonna see it as soft do-gooders trying to interfere. That is NOT my own opinion but I think it could definitely be interpretted that way. I totally agree with Jackie that these ponies are so important, as are all feral Native pony herds, they must not be lost.
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Post by paulking on Nov 20, 2009 22:35:07 GMT 1
If anyone remembers the Johnny Kingdom BBC programme from a couple of years ago, it shows semi-feral Exmoor foals being separated from their mothers out on the moor. Unfortunately it is not on the Internet but it clearly shows what happens to the foals after the drifting. They are forcibly separated from their mothers out on the moor, dragged by their tails and wrestled into a trailer and taken to a barn – their mothers are not taken with them. This is just the beginning of their experience of people.
We know of/have heard of/have witnessed some appalling handling by the EPS – which we have not yet mentioned on the forum – sometimes Exmoor ponies are so terrified by the handling, they collapse to the ground with fear. We know of at least one instance where a pony was inspected and branded whilst collapsed on the floor. When the pony didn’t get up afterwards, it was kicked until it did.
Farmers are being offered an option to do something that improves the prices of the ponies, makes them more desirable to be bought because they are handled, makes handling easier and safer for both the humans and the ponies and improves the accuracy of the EPS studbook. We all want to see Exmoor ponies and other native breeds. I don’t think we are looking at a situation where if we don’t brand ponies they will become extinct.
In the experiences Jackie mentions, a pony being approachable by people is not the same as a pony being handleable. If a pony is going to be inspected, it needs to be headcollared. You could handle your own pony whilst it is inspected and that way it wouldn’t need to be subjected to the rough handling. If ponies are sympathetically handled prior to inspection (and microchipping) and that sympathetic handling is continued straight after inspection, ponies are less likely to be detrimentally affected. Ponies can be frightened in a situation without being traumatised. However, what we have seen is that when ponies are immediately turned away after being subjected to poor handling and painful procedures (such as mutilating identification procedures) i.e, where they have been terrified, they are likely to be traumatised and extremely fearful of people – they know that humans should be avoided. When we sympathetically handle ponies for conservation grazing – so they are handled to the point where they are not tame, just handleable (see the photos and article we posted above). Those ponies will retain their wild characteristics but they do remember their handling and respond accordingly. This is the level that Exmoor breeders/farmers could handle their ponies to. It is not necessary for the handling to be rough at all, it’s just that the EPS do it that way. If your ponies were happy with you handling them but not your visitors, then that tells you something!
The techniques we use mean that it is a relatively quick process to get truly untouched foals handleable. On Dartmoor truly untouched foals can be headcollared, leading, picking up feet, getting used to bouncing balls and loading all within a day - it means they have a chance of finding a home rather than going for slaughter. Yes, OK, these are Dartmoors but what we are trying to show is that the techniques work! As we said before – we welcome anyone who wants to learn these techniques, no matter what background they come from. Of course, it is not just the initial handling that is important – the right handling is important for any horse or pony whether they are wild or domestic. Untouched ponies that are living wild do not have behavioural problems, it is only when they come into contact with people that “problems” can start. It’s the people that are the problem. At least if you can get the initial handling right, it gives the ponies a better chance of a successful future.
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Post by jackiechurchill on Nov 20, 2009 22:57:26 GMT 1
The Johnny Kingdom programme showed Rexs own herd. I think that saying that all moorland herds handle the foals in quite that manner is not accurate and in most cases if possible I believe the foals are drifted to the farm with their mothers. I can think of several moorland herds whose youngstock are shown in hand and behave beautifully having been handled well post weaning/branding/inspections. I have seen good inspections where the foals are sympathetically handled as best can in a situation which even for a domesticated foal would be frightening. Yes I have witnessed poor handling too....but then again I have seen bad handling at livery yards/on show grounds/etc etc which is far worse. The main issue for me is the pain associated with branding. Bad handling is one thing. Inflicting pain quite another.
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Post by portiabuzz on Nov 21, 2009 0:41:43 GMT 1
If anyone remembers the Johnny Kingdom BBC programme from a couple of years ago, it shows semi-feral Exmoor foals being separated from their mothers out on the moor. Unfortunately it is not on the Internet but it clearly shows what happens to the foals after the drifting. They are forcibly separated from their mothers out on the moor, dragged by their tails and wrestled into a trailer and taken to a barn – their mothers are not taken with them. This is just the beginning of their experience of people.
some people should go be allowed near horses or any animals...how can they do it
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