izzy
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,077
|
Post by izzy on Dec 24, 2005 18:18:00 GMT 1
while out riding today i met another rider and noticed that the horse had baler twine in its mouth,through the bit rings over the headpiece and down its neck to the d rings on the saddle.......................i asked y he was wearing this and was told its an anti bucking device!!!!!!!!!! apparently the string is supossed to go over the horses gum and when he attempts to buck this puts pressure on his gum thus stopping him from bucking..............mt landlord had mentioned trying this on my cold backed horse as he broncs on girthing up but i am not at all interested in this method.
has anyone else heard of this method???
|
|
dawnb
Olympic Poster
What a handsome boy I am, pity bout the scarecrow on top!!
Posts: 735
|
Post by dawnb on Dec 24, 2005 18:27:14 GMT 1
Yes, Monty devised something similar named "buck Stop" or Gum line .... which has cured some severe buckers as I understand it. I wouldnt tho think it was to be used on general rides and certainly wouldnt used bailer twine as a makeshift one. These tools are to be used by only the very very experienced who understand not only the physical issues these type of things may create but the emotional and psychological also. I cant say that I am a huge fan of these types of devices, and would only personally use one as an absolute last resort and under the watchful eye of someone who absolutely knew the whole ins and outs of them.
|
|
izzy
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,077
|
Post by izzy on Dec 24, 2005 18:29:43 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by annahindley on Dec 24, 2005 19:22:18 GMT 1
A kamanchie (no idea how to spell it!) work like this in a way. Pressure on the gumns can cause a big endorphine release, so can help to calm them chemically, rather than using brute force. I certainly find a Kamachie (Argg, sp) bridle can be useful in calming a horse for treatment. Have never seen one use in riding though...
|
|
|
Post by marywelsh on Dec 24, 2005 19:33:26 GMT 1
i also only have only heard of this for horses on the ground not riding and only as a last measure, i once had a farrier who wanted to do this in case my horse was naughty and i refused point blank
|
|
|
Post by jor on Dec 24, 2005 21:39:08 GMT 1
Have heard of and seen this sort of thing used. Is a pointless bit of equipment for riding or for anything actually.
Bascially you are tieing the horses head to something so that when he lowers his head to buck it pulls at his mouth, I am not convinced of the release of endorphines when pressure is put on the gums in this way but if anyone can give me concrete scientific evidence I will gladly read it and adjust my opinion. instead of solving the cause of bucking you teach a horse he 'cant' buck, usually resulting in the horse developing another habit, such as rearing or bolting. IMHO it is much better to discover the cause of the bucking and work on that than using it when riding to stop a horse bucking then and there. Sure it may work but WHY did the horse go to buck in the first place?!
Dont get me wrong (esp Anna) I dont think everyone who sees this sort of thing useful as a calmative is barbaric, BUT I cant help think that anyone who thinks its a way to 'cure' a bucker is a bit, errr, one sandwich short???
Mind you I dont like Duallys either....
|
|
Persianhorse
Grand Prix Poster
The picture is taken from a figure found carved on a bone 5000 years ago in ancient Persia.
Posts: 3,405
|
Post by Persianhorse on Dec 26, 2005 17:01:28 GMT 1
You can put Goggles on him which the top half of eye is open and the bottom half part is closed this will overcome the bucking and rearing .
|
|
hebs
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 242
|
Post by hebs on Dec 26, 2005 18:35:38 GMT 1
I agree it sounds barbaric, you need to find the root cause of the bucking first.
|
|
|
Post by annahindley on Dec 26, 2005 19:28:21 GMT 1
I absolutely agree that this would be a strange bit of kit to ride in, you need to find out why the horse is bucking first etc etc - that's how I make my living!
Jo R, as regards the endorphin release, IMHO this is pretty well accepted scientific theory - but all science is just theory which we tend to forget! If you study neurophysiology, you will find something called Melzak and Wall's pain gate theory. It has 2 major components (and this is a simple version for anyone into neurophys!)
How it works in essense is that any stimulus such as rubbing, ice, heat, electric pulse passing onto the skin etc causes stimulation of the sensory nerves. Thoses nerves conduct at a much faster rate than pain fibres (which are generally slow, unmyelinated nerves). The sensory stimulus travels faster to the spinal cord and "beats" the pain sensation in, so "closing the pain gate"; this is why tens machines can control pain, and why Mum "rubbing it better" can work! And magic cream!!
There is a second part of the mechanism. This is called (if I rem right) descending inhibition; basically, in response to the incoming overload of sensory information from, for example, a tens machine, opiods are made at the spinal cord and brain level. These change the threshold for nerves firing and mean that the whole area becomes essentially less sensitive, less painful and less "alert". This is one form of "accomodation! - most people are familar with this concept - its when an itchy jumper stops itching after 5 mins, or why the bath feels hotter on your cold feet than your warm body...
This is all fairly uncontraversial and widely accepted so far...
Now, why do the lips, jaw and gums of a horse cause such a big response? Have you heard of an homunculus? This is a representation of the body according to how it is seen on the sensory cortex. In all mammals, this "Brain image" has large genitals (!) and and enoromous mouth and tongue. This is because there are HUGE numbers of nerve endings going to the mouth. Close your eyes and run your tongue up one of your teeth - if you forget that you know how big your teeth really are, see how one feels about the size of a gravestone? That is because of the huge number of nerve endings. So, if you rub a horses gums, you will get a huge sensory imput. If you get this, you will get central inhibition, and you will get opiod and endorphin release. Note that this SHOULD NOT be a painful stimulus - just a sensory one.
God, that was long! I hope accurate and of any interest to anyone (If it has errors I apologise, it is a long time since I studied pain gate theory!!)
It is probably the reason why windsucking/cribing is so habit forming - the horse can stimulate his own mouth and gums and get hooked on opiods (which after all are the same chemical as heroine). When I was training in horses, out lecturer made us all get down on the table and crib. Try it! You do get a rush!!
Sometimes, things look harsh, but are kind. Having said that, I wouldn't ride in it as described as it would be impossible to control the amount of pressure on the lip and gum.
If I am treating an unbroken youngster I find it a useful method and do not consider it barbaric. Like anything, it can be misused. The horses tend to become increasingly relaxed and trippy - a bit like people when I use acupuncture on sedative points (which also causes a release of opiods).
I always use the least restraint possible, as most people using this site do - but I also use as much restraint as necessary.
Don't forget to some people it looks pretty barbaric to shut a horse in a small pen and chase it with a rope!
|
|
|
Post by mistral on Dec 27, 2005 12:53:48 GMT 1
Hmmmm...... I have seen some of these articles publised in magazines in the USA, and had a friend who was on the Shy Boy film shoot, who told me the same story that is in the articles on that website, but before the film was even released.
|
|
Persianhorse
Grand Prix Poster
The picture is taken from a figure found carved on a bone 5000 years ago in ancient Persia.
Posts: 3,405
|
Post by Persianhorse on Dec 27, 2005 13:54:22 GMT 1
A horse which has the habit of bucking and mostly rearing and there is nothing wrong with them in othere parts of their body this Goggles is a best tool for schooling only for some time after corection you wont need it any more.
|
|
|
Post by jor on Dec 27, 2005 14:27:36 GMT 1
Anna thats really interesting. It was only reading through your post that I remembered something from a hunt yard a few years ago. When clipping a horse he kept jumping all over, the owner vanished, reappearing with a small bag of ice covered with a damp flannel, she took the horses tongue to one side of his mouth and put the little bag against his gums, I do remember it worked in calming the horse. I thought maybe he was concenrating hard on the cold in his mouth. Interesting! I find the theory etc very interesting and to be honest its not particularly the putting some pressure/cold ont he horses gums that gets me, especially when its to calm a horse for treatment, its the method in doing it that concerns me and the way it is used (as with everything!) I do not feel its a tool for ridden work to stop a horse bucking, but as a calming tecnique to provide a safe environment for someone to work in and to help stop injury (or further injury) to a horse its more than acceptable, though again I wouldnt use it for leading a horse about either, though I would be tempted to use the ice method on a horse for the farrier/vet/clipping.
I am firmly against it being used as described in the origional post, ie as a ridden aid to FORCE a horse to stop bucking despite pain/discomfort/fear. That IS barbaric.
By the way, I also dont like chasing horses around a small pen, I strongly object to join-up. Ive had to use it once with a 3yr old colt before, didnt like it but I was forced to use a 'quick fix' to stop someone being seriously hurt. In the following weeks I went back and re-established the relationship with the colt backing him without the use of join up or duallys (this amazed many of the people who had already tried) I do feel that join-up is a circus trick, its not clever to try and back a wild horse in 30 minutes as Ive seen advertised (not from Kelly, and I hope she doesnt claim that!) it also baffles me why people who have owned a horse for years suddenly decide to dominate him by chasing him about til he submits...very strange.
|
|
|
Post by sooleo on Dec 27, 2005 15:35:08 GMT 1
By the way, I also dont like chasing horses around a small pen, I strongly object to join-up. Ive had to use it once with a 3yr old colt before, didnt like it but I was forced to use a 'quick fix' to stop someone being seriously hurt. In the following weeks I went back and re-established the relationship with the colt backing him without the use of join up or duallys (this amazed many of the people who had already tried) I do feel that join-up is a circus trick, its not clever to try and back a wild horse in 30 minutes as Ive seen advertised (not from Kelly, and I hope she doesnt claim that!) it also baffles me why people who have owned a horse for years suddenly decide to dominate him by chasing him about til he submits...very strange. Goodness Jo!! I didn't think we were allowed to say things like that on here ;D I am so relieved that I am not the only one that thinks this way. I believe the whole concept of join-up is seriously flawed and is tantamount to mental cruelty. And as for the 'anti-bucking aid'...I am speechless (for once) What if the poor animal is bucking through pain from an ill-fitting saddle or a back or mouth problem? In that case it would be the horse SHOUTING for help from his handler and being ignored. Just my opinions....
|
|
Persianhorse
Grand Prix Poster
The picture is taken from a figure found carved on a bone 5000 years ago in ancient Persia.
Posts: 3,405
|
Post by Persianhorse on Dec 27, 2005 17:05:07 GMT 1
Hi Sooleo you are absolutely right and many many other things which the rider should understand and pay attention because horses dont speak like us and it is our deuty to know their problems. For example today your horse just dosent like to give you a ride or dosent fill up to it that is normal but we should understand it and respect their fillings.
|
|
|
Post by kas on Dec 27, 2005 17:10:24 GMT 1
Can you post a photo or a link to a photo of these goggles Persianhorse?
|
|