megnum
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Post by megnum on Jan 2, 2008 21:34:50 GMT 1
Say the 2 horses share the same grandfather is that too close to breed if they share no other relation? sorry if this is a daft question but mum says in humans cousin with cousin is fine and that is closer
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Post by indibindi on Jan 2, 2008 21:44:46 GMT 1
If they share the same grandfather then surely they are cousins?
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Post by specialsparkle3 on Jan 2, 2008 21:53:21 GMT 1
I prefer the relationship to be a bit further back, but it should be ok. Some people breed a lot closer .
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megnum
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Post by megnum on Jan 2, 2008 21:57:08 GMT 1
Only half cousins smudge
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Post by indibindi on Jan 2, 2008 21:58:32 GMT 1
Why only half cousins?
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Oranges
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Moments of Perfection
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Post by Oranges on Jan 2, 2008 22:01:58 GMT 1
Kims got quite alot of close breeding (almost inbreeding infact) but thats cus of the small genepool in fells, i'd prefer them to be less realated, it worries me when there closely realeted, but thats what happens when you live where everyone is inbred scary results lol
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megnum
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Post by megnum on Jan 2, 2008 22:03:12 GMT 1
because if I am correct the grandmother would have to be the same to be full cousins or am I confusing myself...
If A and B are to be bred from and A has C,D,E and F for her grandparents and B has C,G,H and I as grandparents only half cousin as other wise both would need C,D the same to be full cousins if I am right but I have definitely confused myself
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Post by janetgeorge on Jan 2, 2008 22:27:41 GMT 1
Say the 2 horses share the same grandfather is that too close to breed if they share no other relation? sorry if this is a daft question but mum says in humans cousin with cousin is fine and that is closer To my mind, it's too close! You may well get away with it - but you'd need to be VERY sure that the stallion didn't carry a dodgy recessive gene. I wouldn't do it - fo any reason - though plenty would. I did BUY a very nice gelding who was BY Powerswood Purple out of a mare by the same stallion. There was nothing wrong with him - he's a very nice horse indeed - but a bit smaller and lighter than you'd expect from the breeding. Also quite highly strung for the breed - although that may have been due to the stupid woman who owned him briefly before I bought him.
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Post by katefox1812 on Jan 4, 2008 18:50:08 GMT 1
I wouldn't say that is too close - Arab breeders do this a lot, and often much closer.
BUT the success of such line-breeding depends entirely on the quality of the horse you are line-breeding to!
How good a horse is this grandfather? If you are doubling-up on his genes, you want him to be outstanding!
Tobago has a foal due this year from a mare who has the same grandmother as him. And a couple of foals with the same great-grandfather.
BUT - the grandmother in question is Queens Topaz, one of the best Arab broodmares ever: all of her many foals are major show champions, both in hand and under saddle.
The great-grandfather in question is the legendary Padrons Psyche - probably the leading living sire of show-Arabs in the world.
I would say check out the grandfather: if he is a great individual with a super pedigree (remember you are doubling-up on all his ancestors' genes as well), then it's no problem. If he is a second-rate horse and/or with a mediocre pedigree, then start worrying.
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megnum
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Post by megnum on Jan 4, 2008 18:55:50 GMT 1
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megnum
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Post by megnum on Jan 4, 2008 19:12:09 GMT 1
Millie the potential mother - out of tickled pink who is by dallas brightspark and out of an arab x welsh who we own. The potential father would be bazaars texas out of ID mare, Bazaars Texas is by Dallas Brightspark. Dallas is by Dallas. Trying to find pictures of Dallas Brightspark and Dallas
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megnum
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Post by megnum on Jan 4, 2008 19:14:48 GMT 1
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Post by suewhitmore on Jan 4, 2008 19:43:59 GMT 1
When you think about inbreeding or line breeding, you need to be rational rather than emotive. One grandparent is only contributing 1/4 of the genetic material in each horse. Each horse contributes 1/2 its genetic material to progeny. The most you could get is a horse that is carrying one quarter of the grandparent. So, what is the big deal about inbreeding? Not a lot really, provided you are willing to cull. What inbreeding does is increase the possibility of undesirable or fatal recessive genetic traits surfacing, because their is a greater concentration of the same genetic material. In wild population and also in the rare breeds such as Fell, Dales and Cleveland Bay, the breed is said to have gone through an "evolutionary bottleneck". The weak horses are gone. This is why expert breeders do line breed. It stamps a type, and the line will reproduce to type. In other words, you get what expect to get.
The decision needs to be taken in context of the breed. Is the breed carrying known recessive traits, such as the fatal white in the arab? If it is, you'd be mad to line breed, you'd probably lose half your progeny. But if there are no known or rumoured undesirable recessives, then the decision is more what stamp are you looking for - will the cross you are planning "fix" (keep) desirable traits?
If you are breeding an endangered breed, you would sometimes have no option but to line breed and hope for the best. It is purely chance, you could end up with something wonderful or something dreadful, whereas with lesser related individuals of the same breed you will usually end up with an average.
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Post by joto on Jan 4, 2008 20:03:08 GMT 1
Theres an interesting phrase about this: LINE breeding is what its called if the results good IN breeding is what its called if the result turns out bad.
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Post by janetgeorge on Jan 4, 2008 20:10:17 GMT 1
So, what is the big deal about inbreeding? Not a lot really, provided you are willing to cull. What inbreeding does is increase the possibility of undesirable or fatal recessive genetic traits surfacing, because their is a greater concentration of the same genetic material. In wild population and also in the rare breeds such as Fell, Dales and Cleveland Bay, the breed is said to have gone through an "evolutionary bottleneck". The weak horses are gone. Not in Fells! And yes, inbreeding will DEMONSTRATE (in a pretty nasty way) that there IS a dangerous recessive gene in the breed. Maybe that's ultimately good for the breed - if breeders are honest about their disasters (and how many will be when their livelihoods are at stake?) AND if the gene can be identified and tested for -- but until it is, inbreeding will help spread it further throughout the breed! Irish Draughts have suffered from in-breeding to the point where something like 80% of the brood mare herd in Ireland (and probably elsewhere) have one of three stallions in their very recent pedigrees. Which makes it VERY hard to breed stallions who are not the same! And in 10 years time, it will be damn hard to find a stallion in the UK who does not have one or more of another 3 or 4 stallions in the first three generations of his pedigree. For example: There were only 41 RID stallions standing in the UK last season. 4 of them were by Touch of the Blues - and one out of a Touch of the Blues mare. That's 10% of the available stallions you have to disregard completely for ToTB mares. Say you had a mare by ToTB or by one of his sons - out of a Grey Macha mare. THAT would reduce the list of suitable stallions by at LEAST another 10%. And that's before you consider size, type, or geographical location - let alone other desirable traits like conformation, movement, proven performance. And - of course - if you had a mare with one of the BIG 3 in the first two generations but who also had ToTB and Grey Macha in the first 2 generations, you could cut the list of 'suitable' stallions to a maximum of about 10! True outcross stallions are like hen's teeth! THAT is the real danger of in-breeding!
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