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Post by Francis Burton on Dec 27, 2006 14:56:18 GMT 1
Janet - I echo the clicker suggestion. In fact, your problem sounds ideally suited to solution using clicker training - definitely agree with Rosemary Hannah there. It wouldn't take long to do either: 2-5 mins to teach the horse that the click means "Yes! Reward coming", followed by 5-15 mins (depending on the horse's motivation and speed of learning) to get her to offer the actions you want - including turning towards the ramp, lifting a foot over a real or imagined line, putting weight on that foot, stepping on to the ramp, putting a second foot on the ramp, and so on - one thing at a time.
You might find, however, that the positive mood created once the horse discovers that she can make treats appear through her own actions is enough to dissipate her fear and 'unlock' her movements, so that she will start to unload after you have trained just a single step or turn.
As you said, it could well be counterproductive to use aversives in this situation if she was frightened to move. So I'm afraid that argues against use of the Dually, which works by applying an unpleasant pressure (aversive) until it is released when the horse moves in the direction of the pull or (better) when the handler drops the pressure in response to a 'try' or intention to move. That's not to say the Dually would not be effective, but it would not be my first choice in the situation described.
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Post by Francis Burton on Dec 27, 2006 15:02:18 GMT 1
It was two sessions later before he would walk more than one step without his click and treat, but it did work a treat. Pun intended? ;D
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tammy68
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Post by tammy68 on Dec 27, 2006 16:19:20 GMT 1
Now this one I COULD do with some ideas on! If it happens again, I need more things to try. You ask for more things to try and title your thread as "I DO need to know what to do" yet you also say - Of course, next time she may refuse to get on - or she may walk straight up. And she MAY walk straight down. But - if we get a repeat ...... any suggestions? Has anyone had this problem with a first time loader? (I have, but it has always been easily overcome wiwth time and patience.) so is this because you want help or are you just opening it up for discussion? My suggestion was to school your young horse in a dually and NOT to just put it on for the first time in a lorry when your horse is frightened and unsure about coming out. Just in the same way others have suggested 'clicker training' and 'positive reinforcement' these things take time.
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jo
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Post by jo on Dec 27, 2006 18:13:42 GMT 1
JanetGeorge said "Don't THINK that's her problem - she has NO trouble putting them down on mine (a real ID trait, that, treading on your toes!) "
then maybe as well as her not knowing where her own feet are you need to learn where yours are and get her out of your space...!
and.....JG said" Well of course you HAVE to teach the 'in' - before you can teach the 'out'! And of course before I can do more work on the 'out' - I have to see if she'll go in again!"
to clarify what I was trying to say, prob in roundabout way... I would still be teaching her the IN and the OUT - but at the same time.
In order to teach the OUT, you teach in, by one foot in and then out. 2 feet in then 2 out, 3 feet in, stand there etc then outwith all 3. 4 feet in on ramp, stand still, relax and then back out with all 4 feet. this is the way I have taught a horse who is worried about moving it's feet and freezing or moving too quickly. The end goal is not all into a trailer or anything it is thta if I say go, then go, if I say stop stop and get control of the horses feet so they can listen hard and make the connection with me and their feet! Then they will be more confident with their own feet!
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anon
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Post by anon on Dec 27, 2006 19:26:17 GMT 1
Janet - I echo the clicker suggestion. In fact, your problem sounds ideally suited to solution using clicker training - definitely agree with Rosemary Hannah there. It wouldn't take long to do either: 2-5 mins to teach the horse that the click means "Yes! Reward coming", time. took me a good few sessions to teach one of mine that the click wasn't frightening! - and longer to teach "reward coming" Quite quick after that though
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 27, 2006 21:08:55 GMT 1
You ask for more things to try and title your thread as "I DO need to know what to do" yet you also say - Of course, next time she may refuse to get on - or she may walk straight up. And she MAY walk straight down. But - if we get a repeat ...... any suggestions? Has anyone had this problem with a first time loader? (I have, but it has always been easily overcome wiwth time and patience.) so is this because you want help or are you just opening it up for discussion? My suggestion was to school your young horse in a dually and NOT to just put it on for the first time in a lorry when your horse is frightened and unsure about coming out. Just in the same way others have suggested 'clicker training' and 'positive reinforcement' these things take time. I wanted suggestions of things I could try if the 'problem' occurred next time. I don't like the idea of schooling her in any form of pressure halter because she doesn't need it - she's never needed so much as a jerk on the lead rope. Putting pressure on her would - in effect - be 'punishing' her for being good. I've never used clicker training - but I don't much like 'treats' as part of training, particularly with IDs - who are greedy so-and-so's. Give an ID a 'treat' 3 times and you never get it out of your pocket again! Of course, I MAY not have a problem. Next time I try she may be fine. Her full brother was a BIT reluctant to come out the first time - although I put THAT down to the crowded carpark at Three Counties Show! It was a pretty filly heading past that changed HIS mind! Maybe Ari (her husband to be) would persuade her off - trouble is, HE'd be up the ramp in a flash and I don't suppose nuptials over a lorry partition would be a good way to go!'' I DO appreciate all the suggestions - not discounting much at present - but will have to wait until husband's little hunting splurge this week is over before I risk tying the lorry up for 3 days! Will report what happens next week - I think I'll initially just try putting her on and then (trying to) take her off - with the idea of waiting it out if she pulls the same trick again. If she decides not to play, I may well be taking Jill up on her kind offer -
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Post by jill on Dec 27, 2006 21:11:20 GMT 1
Just let me know - I did mean it, that is if you're not somewhere like Aberdeen!! Nothing wrong with Aberdeen folks, just about as far away from me as you can get!!
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 27, 2006 23:07:25 GMT 1
Just let me know - I did mean it, that is if you're not somewhere like Aberdeen!! No - I'm probably less than an hour from you - I always say we're 10 miles from Bridgnorth, 10 miles from Ludlow, 10 miles from Kidderminster and 100 miles from anywhere useful! ;D But about 30 miles from Newport.
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Post by jill on Dec 28, 2006 9:04:55 GMT 1
No problem at all - PM me if you want me to mosey over. I have a feeling I might know you from a dim and distant past?
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Post by Francis Burton on Dec 28, 2006 19:52:48 GMT 1
took me a good few sessions to teach one of mine that the click wasn't frightening! The mechanical clicker can startle some horses, it's true, though you can muffle the sound by keeping it in your pocket or make a click noise yourself. Any sound that's unusual, short and consistent should be fine. Just saying "Good!" may be a bit variable. - and longer to teach "reward coming" Quite quick after that though What was the first action you rewarded with the clicker? My favourite is touching a traffic cone with the nose. I think the novelty of the object helps, because a horse will more than likely want to sniff it as soon as it's introduced (I put it on the ground directly in front of the horse). After I found out about clicker training, I wanted to see how fast horses would learn what the clicker means and whether some were more easily taught than others. So I repeated exactly the same procedure with 7 or 8 horses (all owned by the university), taking the cone round the looseboxes. Knowing these horses and which were considered 'smart' or 'slower-witted', I guessed there would be a lot of variation between them. To my amazement, every single one of them took no more than a couple of minutes to cotton on to what it was all about (more often than not you see their eyes light up when they have the "Aha!" moment). Maybe I got them at a good time - when they were bored and hungry!
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Post by Francis Burton on Dec 28, 2006 20:00:14 GMT 1
I've never used clicker training - but I don't much like 'treats' as part of training, particularly with IDs - who are greedy so-and-so's. Give an ID a 'treat' 3 times and you never get it out of your pocket again! If you like, you could think of it as an emergency measure that you would only use in cases of extreme inconvenience. ;D Your IDs' greed would be a definite advantage in this situation. Giving treats as part of clicker training is potentially much more effective and incisive than using them merely as a bribe. (You can also teach them not to by 'fussy'/pushy about treats.) I don't use CT myself for routine training - so I am a long way from being any kind of expert - but I have used a few times to address specific problems. For example, I knew a pony stallion that the farrier insisted on being sedated for trimming because he misbehaved so badly (fear caused him to detest having his feet touched, let alone rasped). Three or four clicker sessions completely turned him around. Teaching him to lift each foot to a specific cue, combined with the 'feel good factor' that CT engenders, allowed me to very readily desensitize him to the sensations he would feel during trimming. Of course, I MAY not have a problem. Next time I try she may be fine. Funny how it often happens that way. Hopefully that is what you'll find next time!
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anon
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Post by anon on Dec 28, 2006 20:58:30 GMT 1
he'll be nosy with any new object immediately - I used a red thingy that goes on pushbikes to keep cars away.
because he was scared of the clkick he was suspicious of everything!!!
this horse is bold and bright - the only things thsat worry him are noises where he cant locate the source of the noise
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