xxx
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Post by xxx on Dec 25, 2006 13:31:08 GMT 1
I wouls also not fancy turning anything on a ramp!
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 25, 2006 19:32:52 GMT 1
Could you take her part way up the ramp and then turn her around, if she's not too big, She's a bit big for that, I'm afraid - she was 16.1 at the grading in September and she's grown a bit since then! Two reasons. First, we tried that - and it showed no signs of working, and second, it won't actually teach her to come off when I ask her to (and if my husband wants to go hunting and Maggie is still stuck at the top of the ramp .... Don't THINK that's her problem - she has NO trouble putting them down on mine (a real ID trait, that, treading on your toes!) I've never had trouble getting her to go anywhere else - we've had her in the stocks - not a moment's hesitation. Well of course you HAVE to teach the 'in' - before you can teach the 'out'! And of course before I can do more work on the 'out' - I have to see if she'll go in again! I'll try to schedule a session in the next week or two - will let you know how it goes.
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anon
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Post by anon on Dec 26, 2006 10:49:03 GMT 1
I wouldnt be turning a big baby around on any ramp - too much risk of her slipping and then really frightening herself.
If it were summer - I'd have a BBQ by the school - load her, and start the BBQ - she'll unload eventually - might take a few hours. Repeat the next day. No food ON the lorry, lots of hay and a bucket of stuff at the bottom....
my pals horse did this - after a couple of time he loaded and unloaded good as gold - unfortunately the first time was on a livery yard, so we couldnt leave him to sort himself out - and it was raining HARD. so about 3 or 4 people - in shifts - got soaked!!!
mayeb a slab of heavy rubber matting over the join between lorry and ramp? and another at the bottom of the ramp between ramp and ground?
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Dec 26, 2006 18:46:46 GMT 1
I do think this is an ideal situation for solving by clicker training - nice horse, unsure....
Mace was clicker trined as a bit of fun - I taught him to knock down a cone and put it upright again. All good fun etc. Then I trained him as a driven horse - no problems with any of it - pulling weight, mock shafts etc till I put him in the cart - whereupon he took a step, decided it was not safe, and he would just stand, thank you very much. I didn't dare leave him of course, and I and everybody else got tired and stiff and cold, and move he would not. Then I thought of the clicker. Got it fetched, and waited till he started to shift legs a bit - just to change the leg he was resting. Clicked that. Instant interest. He tried different things (and I wished I had taught him to follow a target so much!) and then shifted a leg again. clike, treat. Now he had the picture, and in less than another ten mins. he was taking a step, and another. It was two sessions later before he would walk more than one step without his click and treat, but it did work a treat.
Now, with more experience, I would teach following a target as a basic skill .... but even doing it the slower direct way it did work. I should add that Mace is and always has been a bit of a twit.
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naria
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yet when all books have been read it boils down to the horse, his human & what goes on between them
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Post by naria on Dec 26, 2006 20:39:33 GMT 1
Sorry I've no advice janetgeorge but can I must say what a lovely filly she looks ;D. I love IDs (have one myself) & have always liked the look of Lady's Tralee Raj - luckily I have a gelding not a mare so can't be tempted by him!
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 26, 2006 21:09:54 GMT 1
can I must say what a lovely filly she looks ;D. I love IDs (have one myself) & have always liked the look of Lady's Tralee Raj - luckily I have a gelding not a mare so can't be tempted by him! Of course you can - and thank you! I think she's rather special! (Shame she has 2 full BROTHERS - I'd have FAR preferred all girls!) What's your chap's breeding - he looks rather nice (assuming that's him in your sig.) Mmm - not sure if I want Maggie TAUGHT to follow a target - she follows me around like a bad smell as it is! ;D
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tammy68
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Post by tammy68 on Dec 26, 2006 21:37:16 GMT 1
You could try schooling her on the ground using a dually. I have done this with my daughter's connemara pony who is sticky to load and it works. You have to teach them to back up and then move forward towards you. Baking up is the key. If they learn to back up on command then they don't tend to use it as a defence. Maybe you can try taking her onto the ramp and then backing off and then maybe lead her on and off the ramp. It could just be going downhill she doesn't like if she's never done it before.
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naria
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yet when all books have been read it boils down to the horse, his human & what goes on between them
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Post by naria on Dec 26, 2006 21:49:21 GMT 1
Yes that is Jim in my sig The pics a few years out of date now though, he's filled out a bit now & works better in the school. His registered name is Snowford Sunny Jim & he's by Western Sun out of an Embla George mare. His full sister is the dam of Snowford Mount Western. Jim's now 8 & a very full up 16.2 which is bigger than Pam thought he'd be - if he'd stayed under 16hh he'd have been quite big enough for me. He's an absolute sweetheart a lot of the time but when he has his moments they're pretty memorable
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 26, 2006 21:50:30 GMT 1
You could try schooling her on the ground using a dually. I have done this with my daughter's connemara pony who is sticky to load and it works. You have to teach them to back up and then move forward towards you. Baking up is the key. If they learn to back up on command then they don't tend to use it as a defence. Maybe you can try taking her onto the ramp and then backing off and then maybe lead her on and off the ramp. It could just be going downhill she doesn't like if she's never done it before. Don't need a dually - she backs up and walks forward fine in a headcollar and has done since she was a week old. And she didn't back up to avoid going off the box - she just stood still. Once she was ON the ramp, the downhill bit didn't worry her - it was the step she didn't like.
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tammy68
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Post by tammy68 on Dec 26, 2006 22:00:57 GMT 1
The pressure and then the release of the dually acts as a reward for them moving toward you. When they step towards you the release in the pressure is the reward. If this is repeated on the ground in a few schooling sessions then the horse's natural reaction will be to step towards you or back in order to alleviate the pressure and gain reward. This then becomes an automatic response on the part of the horse and you should then be able to lead her where you want her to go.
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Post by janetgeorge on Dec 27, 2006 0:19:38 GMT 1
The pressure and then the release of the dually acts as a reward for them moving toward you. When they step towards you the release in the pressure is the reward. If this is repeated on the ground in a few schooling sessions then the horse's natural reaction will be to step towards you or back in order to alleviate the pressure and gain reward. This then becomes an automatic response on the part of the horse and you should then be able to lead her where you want her to go. But what's the point when her automatic response is to come to me already? And a pat is her reward. I can see the point with something that's bargy or ill mannered - but not otherwise. Why apply pressure when she's already stressed - if she hadn't been stressed she would have followed me off the lorry, as she followed me on. She wasn't fighting, she wasn't using her strength against me in any real way - she was frightened so she stood still. Under MOST circumstances, that's a very helpful and desirable response so why apply 'punishment' in that situation?
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Dec 27, 2006 10:00:33 GMT 1
It is the irony of clicker training that teached the horse t follow the target, not yu, and never to barge for food, whilst hand feeding tit bits. The point is that it gives the horse an easy way of understanding 'yes!'.
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Post by jill on Dec 27, 2006 10:45:03 GMT 1
You don't need a target to do clicker (or reinforcement) training - in fact you don't even need a clicker! I taught Caspar to just put a foot on the ramp by reinforcing (with horse treats) even the tiniest little offer to even touch the ramp. (That is where the target could have come in but I was suggesting with pressure and release on his halter until he got stuck). Within a couple of tries he was trying and then succeeding in putting his weight on one foot on the ramp, from there it is easy to progress to two feet, then three then all four - and you're almost in. The secret is not to reward every attempt - just the ones that move on a very tiny stage once the initital stage is established. That way you don't get expectations of a treat every time, and you do get an improved try - the technique known as shaping where you establish a behaviour then only reward bigger and better towards your final goal It worked so well with him that within about 10 minutes he'd gone from "No I can't it worries me" to "Oh yeah this is easy". That was INTO the trailer but no reason at all why it shouldn't work coming off - just be prepared for a "whoosh" when she finds she is on the ramp and gravity is assisting!! If you are anywhere within reach of me janetgeorge I'd be more than happy to come and help if you do decide to clicker train her. I'm interested to know how it goes - looking forward to an update.
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tammy68
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Post by tammy68 on Dec 27, 2006 12:57:20 GMT 1
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think the dually WAS a form of punishment, merely a training aid. I think you have had some good ideas offered to you on here and I'm sure with your experience as a horsewoman and a little time it will be sorted. I agree with the post about her not quite knowing where to put her feet. It is possibly a confidence thing and when horses are as young and as big as your girl then growth has taken place quite quickly and they haven't had the time to get properly co-ordinated. She sounds like a nice sensible mare and I look forward to hearing how you get on.
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Post by touchstone on Dec 27, 2006 13:50:55 GMT 1
I think you've discovered what the problem is though, 'it was the step she didn't like' so I think I'd maybe try teaching her to use steps in the meantime before you come to loading again. Perhaps the travelling bothered her more than you thought, if she managed to keep balanced by planting her feet then possibly she felt more secure and wasn't wanting to experience the 'ground moving' again. There is always a reason for everything - it is just a case of finding that reason. I've had success in the past by using a front unloading trailer and following another horse straight through the trailer and out the front door, the ramp tends to be less steep anyway, and after doing that until they become blase about it then they usually travel fine afterwards. She sounds quite a character bless her!
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