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Post by Col on Nov 18, 2005 11:35:05 GMT 1
I am hoping someone will be able to shed some light on a few questions i have. My yard manager organised a 'back specialist' (McTimoney i think) to come to the yard as most of us liveries are working full time. I had my horse checked as i am having a few problems with him but i couldn't be there due to work. Anyway to get to the point, my yard manager told me the outcome and i was also given a report sheet but i still have some questions. What i was told fits in with the schooling problems i have been having but i want to understand a bit more about what actual happens with the treatment and how the problem occurs. So the result was that my horse had a rotated atlas, tension in the muscles around the lumbar vertebrae and a tilted pelvis (higher on the right side). Basically what i hope someone can help me with is a more in-depth technical explanation of these problems and how the pelvic tilt is corrected. I used to teach equine anatomy to BSc students so i am familiar with the terminology. Any help will be much appreciated.
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Post by annahindley on Nov 18, 2005 13:44:00 GMT 1
Don't know how a McTim corrects pelvic tilt (did hear they lifted one leg and made horse hop - this may be a malicious rumour as I think that it is hard to isolate one joint using this method?!?).
To my understanding, the pelvis (more specifically the ilium) can tilt either posterior inferior (PI) or anterior superior(AS) (reference point is the tuber sacrale and it is expressed relative to the other (unfixed) side). The SI joint is fixed (within its normal range of motion) in one of these postions. If the fixed side is the high side, the pelvis is fixed PI and the leg is short on that side (I know this seems counter-intuative, but I could show you on a model!) and vice versa. A PI ilium is usually accompanied by a lateral displacement of the sacral apex to the opposite side, with tension in the sacrosciatic ligament. However, this assumes normal biomechanics in the pelvis - which may not be there esp if the onset was traumatic. I would correct an AS ilium with an upward thrust on the tuber coxae on the same side, and for a PI I would contact the tuber sacrale and thrust toward the tuber coxae. Obviously, the exact angle etc depends on fixation and horse.
The atlas can rotate several ways - it can move up toward the ear (cranial) or down to tail (caudal); it can move up toward sky (superior) or down toward floor (inferior) or a combo of these. Also, the altals can be fixed on occiput or on axis, or the other way around. Again, I would thrust into the opposite direction of loss of movement, with consideration of the anatomy and angle of the joints at the level. Not sure of McTim notation so don't know which of these complexes they are treating.
Please do not let anyone persuade you that there is a "bone out of place". If this happened you would need a vet urgently! What does happen is joints get stuck within the normal range of motion - this can be at an extreme of motion or in neutral.
Hope this helps.
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col
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Posts: 3
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Post by col on Nov 19, 2005 14:26:30 GMT 1
Hi Anna, Thanks so much for that explanation, it was exactly what i was looking for. I have always known this form of therapy works but i have never had the faintest idea how!! I have tried to find books or web pages with about this subject but have found none. I ask my yard owner about the 'hopping technique!' but she has never seen this being done. From what i understand she uses short sharp thrusts to correct the tilt but did so on the tuber coxae on this high side of the pelvis and not the tuber sacral. Can i question you little more on this subject? Sorry but i am intrigued by this subject!! I presume that the atlas rotation is caused by muscle spasm and does the adjustment you would perform completely alleviate this or do you back that up with massage? If, as with my horse, the atlas had rotated up (superior) on the left (near side) would you then thrust downwards on that side of the atlas to correct the problem? One more question.................sorry!! My friend horse seems to repeatedly have a problem between the atlas and the axis on the off side, i have heard that problems in this area are generally caused by heavy hands (or heavier on one side in this case) do you agree? I have seen this being corrected by the McTim lady and she brings the horses head round towards her with her right hand and places the left hand in the joint between the two bones and then thrusts. It certainly seems to help and what amazes me is that it seems to work so quickly. Thanks for any light you may be able to shed on this subject.
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carrie not signed in
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Post by carrie not signed in on Nov 19, 2005 14:51:39 GMT 1
The atlas rotation is usually corrected by a downwards adjustment on the superior side, I personally back up wioth Equine Touch because i feel that unless you help to relax any muscles in tension the problem will reoccur. As a cause, heavy handed riding could be a problem, but equally if your horse has fallen, pulled back on the headcollar, hit his poll, also consider haynets as a root. If you have them hanging high up he may always use one side. I prefer hay on the floor personally. You should call the practitioner in person, I'm sure she'd be happy to discuss! This is a reason why I like the owner/rider to be present, also as I can talk through possible changes in riding etc.
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col
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Post by col on Nov 19, 2005 20:04:52 GMT 1
Hi Carrie, I am anti-haynets for that very reason and much to the comment of other i always feed hay from the floor now!! I don't know a great deal about my horses history as i haven't had him long but this problem seems to be a more recent thing but he has been seen tearing around the field like a maniac putting in sudden stops then off again. The practitioner has said i am more than welcome to ring her and i am going to try and arrange a day off work next time she visits so i can see for myself and ask all these questions. The yard owner is also my instructor so they have discussed issues with my riding (!!) which we will address in my next lesson but you are right it would have been ideal if i could have been there. I am not sure if the McTim lady we use uses any other forms of therapy to back up the adjustments, yet another question i have to bombard her with.
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Post by annahindley on Nov 19, 2005 21:47:30 GMT 1
Gonna paste off a web page to save typing. The lesion to a chiropractor is the vertebral subluxation complex. This is what we find and correct.
Vertebral Subluxation Complex or VSC:
"In the VSC, various things are happening inside your body at the same time. These changes, known as components are all part of the vertebral subluxation complex. There are five categories of components present in the VSC. These five are:
The osseous (bone) component is where the vertebrae are not moving properly, or are undergoing physical changes such as degeneration. This component is sometimes called kinesiopathology.
The Nerve Component is the malfunctioning of the nervous system. This component is scientifically known as neuropathology.
The third component is the Muscle Component. Muscles help hold the vertebrae in place and provide proprioceptive input. Nerves control the muscles. Thus, muscles are an integral part of any VSC. Muscles effect, as well as are affected by the VSC. This component is known as myopathology.
The Soft Tissue Component is when you have lack of movement in a vertebrae and pressure resulting in changes in the surrounding soft tissues. This means the tendons, ligaments, blood supply and other tissues undergo changes. These changes can occur at the point of the VSC or far away at some end point of the affected nerves ot other tissues. This component is also known as histopathology.
The Chemical Component is when all these components of the VSC are acting on your body, and therefore causing some degree of chemical changes. These chemical changes can be slight or massive depending of what parts of your body are affected by your subluxations. This component is often known as biochemical abnormalities."
All these components are interelated ie you cannot have a muscular problem without the joint it crosses being affected. A muscle cannot be affected without the blood supply being altered and having by inflammatory (chemical) changes etc etc.
Limiting factors include structural limitations (eg, if you have a hemi-vertebrae you are only ever going to get so far), state of general health ( A sick horse simply won't hold the adjustment) and elimination of cause (eg bad feet, poor saddle fit etc). In a perfect world, the chiropractic adjustment would permantly remove the VSC, but, we don't live there!
Chiropractic theory suggests that oneway into this complex is with the high velocity, low amplitude thrust (chiropractic adjustment) which has primarily effects kinesiopathology (This is not the only way in, but the chiro route; other routes in can also be effective). However, as it is fast and shallow it also affects the muscle spindle receptor (if you have done muscle physiology). It also affects the joint capsule and bombards the brain with proprioceptive input. These two neurological effects can directly affect neuropathology; just as importantly they can instantly correct the muscular dysfunction (With people patients I always test strength before and after adjusting and people always are totally amazed that a weak muscle can immediately regain normal strength). It is therefore often unneccessary IMO to do further soft tissue work. What you are trying to do is neuromuscular re-education ie to prompt the correct pathway to fire in the spinal cord and therefore trigger a correct micro co-ordination of the muscle fibres, rendering further treatment unneccesary (for exampe, imagine walking, you simply do not have to think about it - that is the automatic type of patterns we hope to reset and plug into - and it often works instantly).
Having said all that, many muscle techniques activate the golgi tendon organs, thereby putting another massive stimulus into the nervous system that can only help the process along, provided it is applied in accordance with the adjustment carried out. Its a a bit of a belt and braces approach, but nothing wrong with that.
As regards contact on the tuber coxae, this is a perfectly acceptable technique, but as it is further from the SI joint it is a longer lever. Glad that it is just a rumour about the hopping!! Also glad the techniques are all working for your horses. You've got the principle re: the direction of thrust on the atlas!
As regards the cause - we chiros have a saying "anything causes anything"! Sorry if thats not helpful, but we were continually drilled in training not to "cook book". In essence, this means your friend's horse may have problems coming from anywhere. The pelvis is a common source of cervical subluxation complexes due to dural atachments and mechanical compensations. The founder of Chiropractic gave three reasons for VSC: trauma, toxins or thoughts. Trauma (heavy hands, headcollar, pelvic problems etc) may be the cause here, but be aware that behavioural issues(thoughts) and chemical imbalances (diet, food intolerances etc) are also thought to be responsible. Sometimes the cause can be identified, sometimes it is never found - asking your therapist for their thoughts is an excellent suggestion.
It may be more obvious in people that the thoughts and toxins can cause problems - stress headaches for example, are often associated with spinal dysfunction around the top of the neck and at the shoulder level - no need for any trauma. Similarly, women with period pains (Chemical imbalance) often have a typical pattern in the spine (Chicken and egg though?). Hope this isn't too confusing! Would like to be able to give you a simple answer, but biology won't play the simple game..... Anna
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Post by annahindley on Nov 19, 2005 21:49:05 GMT 1
Gonna paste off a web page to save typing. The lesion to a chiropractor is the vertebral subluxation complex. This is what we find and correct.
Vertebral Subluxation Complex or VSC:
"In the VSC, various things are happening inside your body at the same time. These changes, known as components are all part of the vertebral subluxation complex. There are five categories of components present in the VSC. These five are:
The osseous (bone) component is where the vertebrae are not moving properly, or are undergoing physical changes such as degeneration. This component is sometimes called kinesiopathology.
The Nerve Component is the malfunctioning of the nervous system. This component is scientifically known as neuropathology.
The third component is the Muscle Component. Muscles help hold the vertebrae in place and provide proprioceptive input. Nerves control the muscles. Thus, muscles are an integral part of any VSC. Muscles effect, as well as are affected by the VSC. This component is known as myopathology.
The Soft Tissue Component is when you have lack of movement in a vertebrae and resulting changes occur in the surrounding soft tissues. This means the tendons, ligaments, blood supply and other tissues undergo changes. These changes can occur at the point of the VSC or far away at some end point of the affected nerves ot other tissues. This component is also known as histopathology.
The Chemical Component is when all these components of the VSC are acting on your body, and therefore causing some degree of chemical changes. These chemical changes can be slight or massive depending of what parts of your body are affected by your subluxations. This component is often known as biochemical abnormalities."
All these components are interelated ie you cannot have a muscular problem without the joint it crosses being affected. A muscle cannot be affected without the blood supply being altered and having by inflammatory (chemical) changes etc etc.
Limiting factors include structural limitations (eg, if you have a hemi-vertebrae you are only ever going to get so far), state of general health ( A sick horse simply won't hold the adjustment) and elimination of cause (eg bad feet, poor saddle fit etc). In a perfect world, the chiropractic adjustment would permantly remove the VSC, but, we don't live there!
Chiropractic theory suggests that oneway into this complex is with the high velocity, low amplitude thrust (chiropractic adjustment) which has primarily effects kinesiopathology (This is not the only way in, but the chiro route; other routes in can also be effective). However, as it is fast and shallow it also affects the muscle spindle receptor (if you have done muscle physiology). It also affects the joint capsule and bombards the brain with proprioceptive input. These two neurological effects can directly affect neuropathology; just as importantly they can instantly correct the muscular dysfunction (With people patients I always test strength before and after adjusting and people always are totally amazed that a weak muscle can immediately regain normal strength). It is therefore often unneccessary IMO to do further soft tissue work. What you are trying to do is neuromuscular re-education ie to prompt the correct pathway to fire in the spinal cord and therefore trigger a correct micro co-ordination of the muscle fibres, rendering further treatment unneccesary (for exampe, imagine walking, you simply do not have to think about it - that is the automatic type of patterns we hope to reset and plug into - and it often works instantly).
Having said all that, many muscle techniques activate the golgi tendon organs, thereby putting another massive stimulus into the nervous system that can only help the process along, provided it is applied in accordance with the adjustment carried out. Its a a bit of a belt and braces approach, but nothing wrong with that.
As regards contact on the tuber coxae, this is a perfectly acceptable technique, but as it is further from the SI joint it is a longer lever. Glad that it is just a rumour about the hopping!! Also glad the techniques are all working for your horses. You've got the principle re: the direction of thrust on the atlas!
As regards the cause - we chiros have a saying "anything causes anything"! Sorry if thats not helpful, but we were continually drilled in training not to "cook book". In essence, this means your friend's horse may have problems coming from anywhere. The pelvis is a common source of cervical subluxation complexes due to dural atachments and mechanical compensations. The founder of Chiropractic gave three reasons for VSC: trauma, toxins or thoughts. Trauma (heavy hands, headcollar, pelvic problems etc) may be the cause here, but be aware that behavioural issues(thoughts) and chemical imbalances (diet, food intolerances etc) are also thought to be responsible. Sometimes the cause can be identified, sometimes it is never found - asking your therapist for their thoughts is an excellent suggestion.
It may be more obvious in people that the thoughts and toxins can cause problems - stress headaches for example, are often associated with spinal dysfunction around the top of the neck and at the shoulder level - no need for any trauma. Similarly, women with period pains (Chemical imbalance) often have a typical pattern in the spine (Chicken and egg though?). Hope this isn't too confusing! Would like to be able to give you a simple answer, but biology won't play the simple game..... Anna
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Post by annahindley on Nov 19, 2005 21:52:04 GMT 1
Oopps, didn't mean to paste twice!
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Post by annahindley on Nov 19, 2005 22:22:11 GMT 1
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Post by annahindley on Nov 21, 2005 13:04:08 GMT 1
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col
Novice Poster
Posts: 3
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Post by col on Nov 23, 2005 12:19:59 GMT 1
Thanks for the links and the info they are really useful. I feel much happier now that i understand a bit more about what is going on with this form of treatment. Do you have guidelines about when treatment wouldn't be appropriate ie when a horse is perhaps too old? I ask on behalf of a friend of mine that is at her wits end with her pony. He is only 19 (old but not ancient) and has a problem when one leg seems to just go and he falls over and can't get up for a few hours. He also seems to snatch that leg up as if he has string-halt. His gluteal muscles are massive and rigid but that is about the only muscling he has on his back end. When you try and flex his neck laterally you can apparently feel the cervical vertebra crunch (for want of a better word) if you you place your hands on the neck. The vets are really bothered about him, i think because the feel he is too old (!!). I wondered if i should try and convince my friend to try some form of therapy (probably the same woman we use) even if it is just for an evaluation as she is desperate to find out what is going on. 99% of the time he is fine and happy out grazing and doesn't even seem that stiff. I wondered if the cervical vertebrae are affecting a nerve to his hind legs as with Wobbler's disease? Hope you don't mid all these questions.
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Post by Casper on Nov 23, 2005 13:12:03 GMT 1
Anna, you seem to have an issue every time McTimoney gets mentioned. Yet there are many on here with good testimonials to report, so I would hate you to put anyone off considering them. The reason I am so impressed with our McTimoney practitioner is that when she started working on Bobby his pelvis was 2.5 inches out - yes, 2.5 inches! His atlas was slightly out, which was understable. I knew something was badly wrong with my horse, and even got my farrier out too and he agreed with me, hence we called in another equine back lady to look at him - who said there was nothing wrong. (I posted elsewhere about this yesterday). Fortunately I listen to my horse and so sought another opinion, on high recommendation from trusted equine friends - and thankfully met Emma.
As a result of such a large shift in the pelvis, the atlas then moved, which I understand can often happen when there has been a big adjustment elsewhere on the horse? We had Emma out again (she had been booked to come out every month for three months until we got this right), adjustment made, Bobby okay. That 2nd visit his pelvis was about 0.5 inches out, that was put back in too. 3rd visit again very slight adjustment needed. We have then left it for two months - and she came back this morning for the 4th visit. Pelvis was 100% fine, atlas was fine but the bone at the front of their head (can't remember the name, having a senior moment, can only remember it begain with O) was out. This was put back in, some massage work carried out on him and he is fine.
I can only report the good experiences that happened to us. Your knowledge and the excellent way in which you put things across is superb, it has just niggled me a bit that deliberately or otherwise you seem to be having a pop at McTimoney practitioners.
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Post by PD on Nov 23, 2005 14:44:49 GMT 1
I had a bad McTimoney experience. I was told my horse's pelvis was out. They put it straight and then she was very lame for about 6 weeks afterwards. My vet asked if she'd got trapped in a door??
She still doesn't look quite right on that hip, however she's sound and moves well, so I'm never going to let anyone touch her again - whoever they are. Very bad experience for me, wish I hadn't gone there.
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Post by annahindley on Nov 23, 2005 15:15:20 GMT 1
I have tried to provide here a factual answer based on my understanding of anatomy, biomechanics, neurology and chiropractic.
Casper, I have no problem with anyone who helps horse. Please understand my position. I trained for years to get where I am. I am as qualified as your GP or vet in my field. Chiropractic is an art as well as a science and a philosophy. I spent 40+ hours per week honing my skills for all those years at great cost in terms of time, money and sacrifice. I gained an in-depth knowledge of many areas. This was not the quickest route to treating horses by any means.
I meet hostility from clients and vets when I say what I do as the depth of knowledge from "back people" in general is scanty. I do not like being confused with someone who has completed 25 days training. This cheapens what I am and my profession. It can no longer happen in the human field due to statutory regulation that exist to PROTECT the public. There is great confusion at large regarding chiropratic and it only happens in the UK. I feel that I should clarify this if possible. I am proud of my training and knowledge base.
I know several people who have completed the course I have done and also the McTim course. I am basing my opinion on their experiences, not on blind prejudice. I feel it is unfair to quote them. Recently, many of the staff all left the McTim course when the admission policy changed. Presumably they had good reason.
There are many, many ways to help a horse - reiki, massage, physio, osteopathy. All I want is clarity, that the back man is not a chiropractor; a physio is not an osteopath etc.
I am very glad you have had a good experience and your horse is well.
Col The pony may benefit. However, wobblers cannot be helped and IMO manipulation is contraindicated in wobblers. Stringhalt has a variable response too. The vet probably needs to rule out wobblers prior to treatment and it is worth either the clinician or the owner having a discussion with the vet prior to considering treatment. Age alone is not a problem - I regularly treat a man who is 98 and definitely improve his quality of life. Anna
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Post by jaffaandme on Nov 23, 2005 20:40:28 GMT 1
anna, the McTimoney-Corley practioner that the other two liveries on my yard had out made their horses do the hopping thing. She lifted on leg and made them hop towards her.
Does anyone know what this is for and what it does? I did ask the lady but she was less than forthcoming with an answer. I'm not discounting anyones techniques or practices, I'm just curious about why its used.
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