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Post by stephandwinni on Nov 17, 2005 11:42:42 GMT 1
Sugar beet works out really low if you soak in extra water and rinse it....
It might be worth talking to Jane or Tim at Simple System and explaining you need REALLY consistent feeds, they should be able to help with that, I have to say I find their feeds very consistent (they work with farmers long term and dont' buy on the open market) but I don't have such a tricky pone as yours!
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 17, 2005 11:46:26 GMT 1
Yes, soaking will always leech ut sugars because the definition of a sugar is a water soluble carbohydrate. I wonder if there was a coincidence of some kind when you tried Hi-Fi Lite - I have never heard of any problems with it, it is the lowest sugar feedstuff available.
It is conceivable that April cannot take alfalfa for some reason, so just try things carefully. It may be that the D&H Safe and Sound or or TopSpecs new low starch conditioning pellets might be best for that reason - have a word with Nicola at TopSpec and tell her I sent you - she reads my study group and I talk to her from time to time about cases, so I know she is up to speed with all the latest findings on Hormonal laminitis whereas most feed companies are not, so you will end up talking at cross purposes with them.
SS have so many new alfalfa products I have never gotten round to checking the analysis of them, I have bought pallets of their beautiful South African alfalfa hay before. After I had long conversations with Tim Warren about the analysis of that I know he analysed the whole lot fully, so the information is available. Tell him you want a low sugar and iron one for a Cushing's case if you get some, and see which he recommends.
As I say, I have always used soaked Dengie pure alfalfa pellets because I've had the analysis for 15 years, and they are entirely unmolassed, as are Speedibeet or D&H KwikBeet which are widely available even if you have to order them through your local feed merchant, and you'll want to order one bag to try at first anyway.
Jackie
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Post by VeronicaF on Nov 17, 2005 21:26:08 GMT 1
Thanks jackie, I think I will try this simple systems as it does sound good, and a lot of people are swearing by it, if I don't try it I will never know, Simple system has given me this advice with their foods for April-- Lucienuts, which are just pure Lucerne, that soak to form an easy to eat mash. Then once fine with that add our total eclipse, forage balancer and then unmolassed beet pulp if needed. but at the moment we have very bad frost weather conditions, April is in and will be staying in until it is over, but usually even if she is in she usually(last winter) didn't cope well with the weather changes at all, but this year so far she is fantastic, having no ill effects at all from it so feel I will wait to try her on the simple systems feed until after this spell so I don't get a false reading to how she copes on it I have looked at the feeds you have suggested and will put it on here as its always handy for people to read and see what it looks like all these different feeds are a nightmare, makes my head spin with it all, when you start looking at them all,and breaking down what it is them there are so so many, and so many companies saying all different advice last few days I have had replies from about 10 different companies all giving different advice. and its hard to make your mind up, plus hard to know who to trust in what they are saying as they all swear their feeds are the best for April. so will have to wait and see what Aprils body says Thanks again love Vxxx Kwik Beet Dodson & Horrell KwikBeet is produced using a unique cooking process and offers all the benefits of traditional sugar beet, without the inconvenience of long soaking times. KwikBeet is ready to feed after only 10 minutes of soaking. Dodson & Horrell KwikBeet is produced using a unique cooking process and offers all the benefits of traditional sugar beet, without the inconvenience of long soaking times. KwikBeet is ready to feed after only 10 minutes of soaking. KwikBeet is unmolassed and is an ideal source of slow releasing energy from digestible fibre. This provides sustained fuel for stamina work and helps to minimise excitability in ‘fizzy horses’. It can also be used to put weight on if fed in addition to the horse’s current diet. The natural grass diet of the horse is high in water, however, the diet of the stabled or horse in winter tends to be drier. Water is vital to the horse’s digestive system as a ‘liquid diet’ is less likely to cause impaction problems. Feeding KwikBeet increases the water content of the diet and is particularly suitable for horses on box rest or restricted grazing. KwikBeet can be fed as a palatable addition to normal concentrate feed and can also be used as a partial forage replacer. Kwikbeet is also suitable for horses and ponies at risk from laminitis. ALFALFA PELLETS Made from 100% Dengie alfalfa which is cut at its most nutritious stage of growth and high temperature dried (800°C) Alfalfa pellets are a natural highly nutritious feed in a pelleted form. They supply 'slow releasing' energy in the form of highly digestible fibre, and provide good quality protein as well as a host of natural vitamins and minerals. Alfalfa is naturally low in sugar (water soluble carbohydrates) and Dengie Alfalfa Pellets, unlike many other cubes or mixes, are also unmolassed. Alfalfa Pellets are ideal for those horses and ponies that require a low sugar diet and are a suitable feed for the healthy maintenance of horses and ponies prone to laminitis. Dengie Alfalfa Pellets allow poor quality forage to be upgraded, whilst providing a good quality and nutritious feed for horses and ponies at a competitive price. Typical analysis (%) ‘as fed’ Protein 16 Oil 2.5 Fibre 32 Ash (Minerals) 10 Digestible Energy 9 MJ/kg
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 18, 2005 1:34:43 GMT 1
And I can add to that analysis 5% sugars, 2% fructans, and 1.7% starch if I recall correctly.
You do realise lucerne and alfalfa are exactly the same thing? If April reacted to Hi-Fi Lite because of the alfalfa content she may react to Alfalfa pellets or Lucienuts - but you won't know 'til you try.
Only problem I feel with the Simple System diet above is it relies on the hay being of good analysis, and IME most hay will lack trace minerals such as zinc and copper, plus magnesium and possibly phosphorus. Total Eclipse is not a mineral balancer or supplement, more a supplementary feedstuff, that's why I recommend TopSpec balancers with whatever brand of alfalfa or beet pulp is fed.
Jackie
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Post by Casper on Nov 18, 2005 8:16:38 GMT 1
Veronica, I give Bobby Top Spec Balancer with his SS feed, instead of Total Eclipse. The reason for this is that although we are fairly new to SS, he has been on Top Spec balancer for the last year or so - and the results are amazing! Lovely coat, feet excellent etc so I am reluctant to change. FWIW, one of my friends had been feeding Total Eclipse since about January this year, and her horses feet are nowhere near as good as Bobby's. Could be a coincidence, but she has three horses compared to my one, so I don't know.
Hope April is okay with this cold spell. Does she like coming in? Bobby LOVES it! He always gets turned out early in the am and comes in between 5pm and 6pm at night at the moment to maximise his turn out. He is a bit of a piggy so I think it is all the hay and feed which is his lure of course. Unfortunately we don't have enough natural shelter where we are for him to live out 24/7 so this routine is really suiting him. Love to Little April x
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Post by VeronicaF on Nov 18, 2005 8:40:30 GMT 1
Thank you guys for all that information.see the way I see things at the moment is, she is doing better than she ever has farrier says her feet are the best they have ever been,she isn't struggling at all, her coat looks so shinny, she is in good condition and her weight is good, and you have a feeling if something isn't broken" don't fix it" and she is only on markways horsehage and grass when there is not frost, compard to last year when she was on everything and she was awful, wherea few times I thought she wouldn't make it and we had to put her to sleep but I know I need to find her something in feed extra for the winter , it just so scares me in if to try this or that, its a nightmare to know what to do for the best, she is ab lib on this markways horsehage by the way but thanks for all your thought, I will let you know what I do and how she gets on yes casper April is the same, she loves coming in too her stable is right next to our house , she doesn't mind beinging in, and seems to know herself when she can go out and when she can't,like she doesn't expect me to turn her out when the weather is like this, but when its okay she is waiting for me to turn her out and neighing to me. Thanks again guys love Vxxx
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Post by VeronicaF on Nov 23, 2005 17:46:06 GMT 1
Hi Guys,very early days I know, but April has just finished her second meal of a handful of Lucienuts mixed into a mash started from yesterday,so far so good, usuallythe first thing I spot when she can't cope on something is a sudden rush of weeing,and I mean a lot like a waterfall, then she sort of stamps her feet as she walks,or walks in a sore way, or shifts her weight from foot to foot, and there is blowing too but so far she seems fine,but its only the second meal and the second day,so wont count my chickens yet,although so far it looks hopful,fingers tightly crossed love Vxxx
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Post by Casper on Nov 23, 2005 20:00:14 GMT 1
Oh that's great Veronica, hope this continues. Bless her, she sounds like a little star x
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Post by Jessey on Nov 24, 2005 16:38:01 GMT 1
Just wanted to add my tuppence worth, haven't had time to read all the posts so may be duplicating here: I learned last year that feeding alfalfa to cushing horses seems not to be beneficial, there is no scientific data to prove this but apparently it is just a known thing in many parts of the states where Alfa is a main feed stuff.
I also have a golden oldie, he is in his 30's and has cushings, arthritis etc. Early last winter we took him off all alfa which seemed to really help, he became much brighter and happier, we then also cut out as much sugar as possible and introduced Brewers yeast. He is now fed on a dried grass like Graze-on or Redi-grass with Speedibeet and a vitamin and mineral supplement and if he really needs a boost some pony nuts soaked down. Also our chap struggles to eat hay or hayledge due to too many missing teeth but he is still looking really well on this diet.
Best wishes J x
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 24, 2005 18:58:18 GMT 1
It is not true that 'feeding alfalfa to Cushing's horses' is not beneficial - on the contrary many of them badly need the low sugar source of quality protein it supplies, and Readigrass is a high sugar feed.
However, as I mentioned above, there are some laminitics that might be unable to take alfalfa. In the US this is no surprise as it is very often high in sugar, and I have never known a laminitic/Cushing's case in the UK definately not be able to take unmollased UK alfalfa, which is low in sgar - but, still, there are anecdotal reports of some poor responses we are at a loss to explain, so it's as well to introduce it with caution, as with any new feed, to a fragile case like April.
Jackie
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Post by VeronicaF on Nov 26, 2005 10:08:40 GMT 1
well just an update guys, April has just had her day 4 meal of Lucienuts mixed into a mash ,and all is well so far I even uppped it yesterday too to two handfuls, but given into two meals puls added a bit of Total Eclipse in it too.so far so good love Vxxx
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Post by VeronicaF on Nov 26, 2005 10:12:49 GMT 1
Hi Guys, found out somthing too with April and why she couldn't cope one time on a batch of markways blue bag horsehage, she seemed to cope fine on it all summer, then we got another lot and it seemd diffrent, and April didn't do so well on it, so had to search around for another lot somewhere else and again she was okay on it well I found out what was wrong today. the batch of horsehage she had had that she didn't cope on had come from shoesberry! but the ones she can cope with come from doncaster! hope thats the right spelling? I was told today there had been a few other old horses not coping on the shoesberry batch too it being a lot richer in substance so just goes to show doesn't it? must be something to do with the weather in diffrent areas when it is made? or something? interesting though isn't it? thought I would share this with you though as it might help someone else? if I make sense tee hee love Vxxx
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Nov 26, 2005 10:38:38 GMT 1
Horsehage grass (and any other grass based product) will be cut two or sometimes three times during a season from a variety of locations, under changing weather conditions, which can in themseleves dramatically alter the nutrient composition of grass. Different fields on the same farm can produce a very different results, or even the same field cut on a different day. So, whist the fermentation process may even out some of the differences, there is always going to be variation in the end product.
Jackie
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Post by VeronicaF on Nov 26, 2005 17:15:19 GMT 1
Thanks Jackie! I have come up against a problem, April doesn't like the Total Eclipse! she was a bit iffy with it yesterday when I added it for the first time to Lucienuts mixed into a mash, but today well tonight as I didn't add any of it to her feed this morning-she wont touch it at all, she is very happy and doing well on the Lucienuts. its a pain as well because at the moment we have only got samples packs to see if she is alright on these feeds, and I really couldn't afford her to waste it like she has by refusing to eat it because of the Total Eclipse!
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Post by VeronicaF on Nov 29, 2005 18:14:08 GMT 1
Just an update guys,April is still doing fantastic on simple systems feeds, Thank you to everyone who helped me with regards to putting me onto simple systems!!! its fantastic food Thank you just wish I had tried it sooner Thanks again love Vxxx
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