The Real Consequence of Eating Horses

[Catrin]

As eaters of cattle, sheep, pigs and game, we have little defence against the eating of horsemeat. The rearing, raising and transporting of horses for slaughter is where the battle must be fought.

The BBC raises the horse welfare issues in some unpleasant detail.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21046118

[cheekychops]

I think this is the link I posted yesterday on the other thread, and I have to confess I couldn't bring myself to watch it

I don't eat meat, on the basis that if I'm not prepared to eat one 4-legged grazing animal, then I don't fancy eating any of the others either!

[jinglejoys]

A starved horse is no use for meat.If some value was put on the meat the animals would be better looked after.It looks as if some good may come of the situation if they start looking into passports,sorry Mr Reporter,horses aren't passported just like cattle!Cattle have ONE passport agency and it doesn't cost a bloody fortune

[jen1]

this is why breeding should be taken in hand, with hefty fines for those doing it illegally, in some ways even if it is illegal there doing the horses some kind of service not sure what, but im thinking there mopping up other peoples mistakes greed problems, etc, im not condoning anything but we wouldnt be able to move for over bred horses if some were not removed, which leads me to believe that ever yard breeder owner should be registered and if there not prosecuted at the individuals cost

[specialized]

That type of horse will usually end up in the petfood chain, but the main issue there is the passport system which the last government brought in to try and tax horse-owners and which has failed dismally.
There is no comparison with the sheep and cattle traceability as farm animals need movement licences which are controlled by one body and enforced much more rigidly. Admittedly if horse meat were to become an accepted meat in this country there would need to be a passport system that actually worked and it may lead to better welfare.
There is a large trade of horses for slaughter coming from Ireland when the TB studs have a clear-out.

[Catrin]

The danger, that I see, is not that we will get dubious meat in the food chain, but that horses are not suitable animals to be farmed. Their welfare needs are quite different from cattle. Horses can be reared and managed in herds, but they cannot be moved, even to local slaughter houses without human handling. We all know what that means to an unhandled domestic horse, let alone one farmed for meat by a large conglomerate.

At present the 10,000 horses that come out of racing or are surplus young stock at sales, have a reasonable chance of being transported safely to Bristol or Nantwich. Their onward journey to the european butcher in on the hook. The 2,200,000 cattle that are taken to abattoirs travel with adequate controls and transport. Cattle, when previously unhandled, are much easier to move than horses. Their needs are easier to meet.

If we had a world that has long gone, where drovers took them to market, then with suitable management systems there might be some chance of local humane slaughter for horses. We no longer have the roads and we no longer have a slaughter house at the butchers. As the system is now, wild horses would be herded into lorries and harassed into abattoirs were they will die injured and terrified; just as they do coming from Poland and Spain to Belgium and Italy. The injuries will be as bad, though the journeys are much shorter, so they'll suffer the pain and distress for a shorter time.

The only way forward would be to have a travelling knacker–man, who visits the farm to shoot the horses, then takes them away as they do when the vet's been. The chance of that becoming legislation is as likely as finding a flying pig in a Tesco burger.

[Deleted]

I'm totally against the current horse for meat trade, so please don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure that I'd be quite so clear cut that horses aren't suitable to be farmed/eaten but other species are. A cow/pig/sheep's reactions to fear and stress may be different to a horse's, but just because we are used to the concept of one as food and the other as sport/recreation/etc doesn't mean that the species fall into those neat categories.

I worked with a number of the horses who were brought over from France a few years ago, horses destined for slaughter, and those that had been bred for the meat market were generally heavy and placid types.

The ones that really sickened me to the core were those who had previously been ridden horses but were now too old or broken to be of any use. Some of those I met showed the signs of years of hard work, then rewarded by being disposed of like an old pair of boots.

Those are the ones I fear end up on the 'filler' market.

[lawyerbunny]

Jan 18, 2013 13:32:19 GMT 1 specialized said:

That type of horse will usually end up in the petfood chain, but the main issue there is the passport system which the last government brought in to try and tax horse-owners and which has failed dismally.
There is no comparison with the sheep and cattle traceability as farm animals need movement licences which are controlled by one body and enforced much more rigidly. Admittedly if horse meat were to become an accepted meat in this country there would need to be a passport system that actually worked and it may lead to better welfare.
There is a large trade of horses for slaughter coming from Ireland when the TB studs have a clear-out.

Completely agree. Horse passports are a shambles and can't be compared to the strict regime for sheep/cattle.

I do think we need to think carefully about what tighter registration/passport controls would amount to. Could you ever have a similar system that was workable for horses given their many and varied uses?

Leaving aside welfare issues (which noone could ever condone) I've never had an enormous objection to those that choose to eat horsemeat IF properly reared and slaughtered. I just think it's an incredible waste of an animal that is capable of such higher things.

Interesting point, Liz, about the difference in temprament between horses bred for meat and those which are not. I suppose my objection, as far as it goes, is based on the emotional intelligence of the horse and its higher understanding/capabilities*. But then it's worth remembering that sheep, cattle, pigs and chickens weren't always what we see today. They've been selectively bred for docility as well as to produce good meat. If the same were true of horses over the next few hundred years, would I have the same objection..? Probably. It's a cultural thing that I don't think we'll ever shift in this country.

[Deleted]

Jan 18, 2013 16:27:22 GMT 1 lawyerbunny said:

I suppose my objection, as far as it goes, is based on the emotional intelligence of the horse and its higher understanding/capabilities*.

Are they, though? I'm always being surprised at how quickly the chickens learn, and how they can work things out. There are clicker trained sheep, and pigs are certainly very bright.

A horse may have higher capabilities but that is very often because we've taught them stuff.

As for the emotional side, my personal feeling is that the emotions of the animals themselves are probably pretty well on a par, it's our emotional response that singles out the horse.

Undoubtedly we respond differently to the different species, and our responses vary from person to person. Some are dog people, some are cat people. I know it's an incredible concept, but apparently some people even don't like horses . Seriously, though, when it comes down to it there isn't a vast difference in fear levels etc., and being herded onto a lorry and driven badly for miles is just as awful for a sheep as it is for a horse. It is really our own perceptions that drive this.

I personally choose not to eat animals, birds or fish, so for me the idea of eating a horse is just the same as of eating a pig, a chicken, or a dog. However, if animals are eaten then we should be focussing on the standard of their care and handling throughout their lives and on to their slaughter. That is where this BBC report raises questions for me. Those standards are appalling regardless of which animal they have been forced on.

[madmare1]

If you look at the traditional coloured cob, they were bred to pull the owners caravan, breed foals, and the foals were either sold on, or ended up as food. The French, the Belgians, and many other European countries, actually had breeds of horse specifically bred for the meat they produced, and sometimes the milk as well. Sadly some of these breeds have been lost.

It's one of those things....we need a solution for the overbreeding, but is this it? Who knows.

Emma xx

[shan]

I think it's disgusting the way too many human food-chain animals are treated, I get a bit bored with hearing how 'humane' and 'quick' the abbatoirs are when it isn't true. The whole of it sickens me, from birth to death and everything inbetween.
Have we still got a beef mountain? Is there really a need for the amount of animals that are bred for food even?
I can envisage the horse meat thing is/will be alot more widespread than we know, especially now.
I fully appreicate why alot of carnivores would object to eating horses, I would have done too, then again alot of people have the attitude of "I don't care what it is as long as it tastes nice", and that's what the food industry will thrive on, people not giving a damn about what goes into their bodies.
Makes me glad to be a vegan when issues like this arise.

[specialized]

Jan 18, 2013 18:18:35 GMT 1 @lizp said:

Jan 18, 2013 16:27:22 GMT 1 lawyerbunny said:

I suppose my objection, as far as it goes, is based on the emotional intelligence of the horse and its higher understanding/capabilities*.

Are they, though? I'm always being surprised at how quickly the chickens learn, and how they can work things out. There are clicker trained sheep, and pigs are certainly very bright.

Having kept plenty of both over the years I would probably put pigs a bit ahead of horses in the understanding/capabilities/intelligence quota.

[Pony-Nutt]

I think that if horse meat was properly on the menu either here or sent abroad it would be farmed better and the horses at the lower end of the quality scale would actually be better looked after until they were killed. Proper slaughter facilities with vets in attendance just like the good abattoirs for other farm animals are what is needed though and if this was the case they would actually put the rogue/back street horse slaughterers out of business as anyone (lots of Polish here now) who wanted to buy horse meat would be able to buy it legitimately and so the rogue traders would lose their hold on the sale of it. Anyone who is willing to bend all the rules is not going to go overboard on animal welfare whereas a conscientious farmer of other meat animals may also stick to the rules of farming horses and in the long run unwanted horses and ponies and the less than perfect ones from breeding stock would actually have a value and so be both looked after better and prevented from being passed from pillar to post.
I know it sounds very harsh but sometimes being practical is the kindest way when dealing with lots of animals.

[mrsfields]

the laws are pretty strict here in France i think, re. horses for consumption, when it comes to ridden horses who have had veterinary care because if they've had certain medication they cannot then enter the food chain...

i only discovered this a couple of years ago, when my vet mentioned it to me, and he has written on both my horses' papers that they will not be eligible to enter the food chain - my Reggie had received medication which meant he could not be sold for meat, and he also asked me if i wanted the same thing marked on ken's papers, and of course i said yes!)

i've lived in France for a long time, but still can't get used to seeing horsemeat at the supermarket, and i know it's hypocritical as i'm not vegetarian, but it really upsets me and makes me feel physically queasy!

[Catrin]

Jan 18, 2013 18:55:08 GMT 1 Pony-Nutt said:

I think that if horse meat was properly on the menu either here or sent abroad it would be farmed better and the horses at the lower end of the quality scale would actually be better looked after until they were killed.…

Then why isn't that the case in Europe? Horses are still transported thousands of miles for slaughter in atrocious conditions, even though the laws exist to prevent this happening.

Until we get local abattoirs and horses travelling on the hook, we can't hope to ensure that welfare isn't compromised.

At present horses are channelled through ROI to France and end up on the long hard road to Italy. The subject has been of serious concern in the House of Lords, but will only worse if a demand for horsemeat is created. "During last year, the provision of abattoirs in Northern Ireland was insufficient to meet the demand for the slaughter of unwanted horses that were, having been bought by UK meat dealers, sometimes waiting for up to six weeks in unsatisfactory conditions before there was the capacity to ship them to England for slaughter." www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2012-07-05a.843.2 All Lords debate July 5, 2012.