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Post by Pony-Nutt on Jan 18, 2013 19:37:32 GMT 1
Quote : Until we get local abattoirs and horses travelling on the hook, we can't hope to ensure that welfare isn't compromised.
Exactly that catrin! We need more proper facilities like Turners to make slaughtering them in England economically viable. If horses were viable economically as meat their suffering would be much less if done properly. No good creating demand before the facilities are there, that would be a disaster.
There are very very few farms where the cows and sheep are allowed to starve to death en masse in the way that the Spindles Farm horses had to endure because they are always worth something.
In any breeding programme there are always less than perfect animals that are either only good enough for meat or in the case of horses end up being sold cheaply to anyone who will have them. Being low value animals from the start they are often passed about from pillar to post until they are either sent for meat anyway or end up in rough hands. It is no life for a horse and it is these ones that a good meat trade would be there for. Very few 'rejects' end up living the life of Riley as a field ornament, I know we all know a nice rescue story but Im sure we all know much more tales of woe and misery.
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Post by jen1 on Jan 18, 2013 21:00:51 GMT 1
this is Samantha my clicker trained sheep, no human intervention until i trained her, so yes they can be intelligent,
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Jan 18, 2013 22:21:03 GMT 1
Which says to me it is no more wrong or right to eat a horse than it is a sheep. I suppose although you eat lamb and breed them to sell for meat you would not want to eat Samantha? The French are not wrong to eat horse but no doubt the French who have a horse to ride dont eat it at the end of its working life. Personally I think that when there is so much hunger in the world it is wrong to discard all the horses that we do and pay to incinerate them when they could at least be used for pet food. Who is wrong and who is right? Does it really matter? As a country the best thing we can do is make sure our own horses dont have to travel all over Europe to go to slaughter and the best way to do that is to have good facilities to deal with them at home. And plenty of them I say
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Post by specialsparkle3 on Jan 19, 2013 10:06:52 GMT 1
Interestingly, BBC News have just interviewed a French Chef who insists that the French public now find it distasteful to eat horse as it is like eating a "pet", and he, along with most restaurants in France, would not dream of having it on his menu. He went on to say that horse meat has to be prepared by specialist butchers of which there are now very few, and soon will be no longer exist. I wonder what Mrs Field and Marrianne and any other members living in France have to say about that!
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Post by mrsfields on Jan 19, 2013 10:32:16 GMT 1
Interestingly, BBC News have just interviewed a French Chef who insists that the French public now find it distasteful to eat horse as it is like eating a "pet", and he, along with most restaurants in France, would not dream of having it on his menu. He went on to say that horse meat has to be prepared by specialist butchers of which there are now very few, and soon will be no longer exist. I wonder what Mrs Field and Marrianne and any other members living in France have to say about that! i'm in the depths of rural France, so not sure our experience applies elsewhere, but sadly horsemeat is still sold in the supermarkets here... in fact my OH came home from the supermarket yesterday and said he nearly accidentally picked up a tray of horsemeat in the meat section as it looked just like beef steak - thank GOD he read the label properly!!! i do know of a few locals who eat it (my teenage son was served some at his friend's grandmother's house - i don't know if it's a more traditional older-generation thing...) but i do think it's a lot less prevalent than years ago... i remember when i lived in Paris 20 years ago, it seemed like there would be a specialist horse butcher everywhere i looked! but that doesn't seem to be the case any more... there are still specialist horse butchers around, though not many at all - i only know of one locally (who is a friend of a friend) - it was funny because i met him over drinks at my friend's house a few years back, and at the time i was keeping my horses in her field, and everyone was looking out the window admiring my lads, including the horse butcher lol!!! but i didn't realise that's what he did at the time (or i would've said "hey keep your eyes off my lads!!!"), and apparently he was really worried about me finding out because he knew i loved horses and thought i would be upset with him - but someone then told me and it was fine, and we made a joke about it and didn't discuss it again... he's a nice guy and he did seem to feel very awkward about it, and i guess more and more people are finding it less acceptable now - there have been quite a few campaigns going on over the years to stop the sale of horsemeat for human consumption... so i do think things have been changing... will be interesting to hear what it's like in other parts of France! xx
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Post by specialized on Jan 19, 2013 14:04:59 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 14:13:10 GMT 1
this is Samantha my clicker trained sheep, no human intervention until i trained her, so yes they can be intelligent, Brilliant ;D
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Post by lawyerbunny on Jan 19, 2013 14:18:07 GMT 1
Yes, I've just read that too. Absolutely horrible. BTW I do agree about the intelligence of pigs, sheep, hens etc. I'm honesty not suggesting they're unintelligent When we got our hens their personalities and intelligence was fascinating to watch (and made me determined never, ever to buy any non-free range eggs or chicken!). It's the emotional side that I was thinking of and the bond between horse and human I agree completely that's in the mind of the human, too. When I say waste, I mean a waste not to let that bond be formed.
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Jan 19, 2013 17:30:37 GMT 1
Horrible news item but exposing it should make the firm clean up their act hopefully. I wonder if the varying intelligence of animals is what we see or are able to see and no what is actually there?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 18:04:39 GMT 1
I did watch it, very distressing. I think there are several problems that need to be addressed. Some should be relatively straightforwards, such as having a single and accountable passporting system and madatory microchipping of every horse. I know this might lead to us having to replace our existing passports but for me it's the only way to make every single equine identifiable. At a minimum, there should be a requirement that no horse should be allowed to be sold or moved within say a month of its passport being issued. There is, though, a wider issue that such a grey area. The horse is the only creature that has such diverse uses by humans. There is no distinction between horses bred for recreation/sport, and horse bred for meat. The ability to change passports aside, this leads to horses being bred randomly by unscrupulous breeders - if they're good enough to be sold as riding horses then great, if not they're on the scrap heap and treated appallingly. It also leads to the low end of the dealing market, with the same luck of the draw. For the dealer it's worth trying to get a couple of hundred quid from a pity buyer, if not he'll still get something from the meat man (by the way, is there a reason why 'to flog' can mean both sell and to beat?). I believe there should be two distinct groups of horse - those that are bred for sport/receation, and if horses are going to be eaten then those who are bred, reared and handled as cattle, etc. No crossover. And anyone rearing for meat should be subject to the same laws, restrictions, inspections, etc as a cattle farmer would be. I also believe there should be stricter regulation of dealing and also of breeding. Of course people should still be able to breed the occasional foal, but anyone who breeds, say, more than one year should be regulated - with breeding stock assessed and their youngstock traced to make sure they are not going into the meat market (unless as above). Anyone selling more than 1 or 2 horses per year on a regular basis should be registered as a dealer and inspected annually. The cost should be borne by a sales tax or something. The thoroughbred industry also needs some sort of regulation. It needs to create its own safety net for those animals who don't make the grade or who are retired. It is, I feel, up to the racing industry to be responsible for the animals taken out of the racing pool for one reason or another, and I'd even go so far as to say they should be responsible for each animal's welfare for maybe even 2 years after retirement. If all this makes breeding, buying and selling horses more expensive, then so be it. Especially if it makes the cheap end of the market no longer viable. That is sort of where I think efforts need to be concentrated. Ultimately, it should all be about horses no longer being treated as commodities. Of course they will be bred, bought and sold, but with respect. Off my soapbox now...
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Post by cbc on Jan 19, 2013 18:07:42 GMT 1
Horrible news item but exposing it should make the firm clean up their act hopefully. I wonder if the varying intelligence of animals is what we see or are able to see and no what is actually there? I believe from my own experience with cows, sheep, and a bit with pigs, that the "variation" has a lot to do with what we actually see.
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Post by Catrin on Jan 19, 2013 18:59:46 GMT 1
Intelligence is thought to be correlated to experiences. There was anthropological research some time last year that indicated why technical developments originated in the northern land masses and not nearer the equator. The research was with birds and showed that those who live in colder more hostile climates are able to solve puzzles better as their need to search for food gave them more useful experiences than those who lived in warmer climates, where food was never more than a few yards away. The difference was noted within the same species too.
We can probably conclude from that that animals who are fed and looked after and given nothing to do, will not be as intelligent as those who survive in the wild. But then that too is going to vary as in the wild you can be a follower or a decision maker, so the lone wolf will be a little cleverer that the related male in the pack who isn't allowed to breed.
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Post by lawyerbunny on Jan 19, 2013 19:15:31 GMT 1
The thoroughbred industry also needs some sort of regulation. It needs to create its own safety net for those animals who don't make the grade or who are retired. It is, I feel, up to the racing industry to be responsible for the animals taken out of the racing pool for one reason or another, and I'd even go so far as to say they should be responsible for each animal's welfare for maybe even 2 years after retirement. Agree that more needs to be done here. The British Horseracing Authority is already doing something It was them that set up Retraining of Racehorses which receives funding from the racing industry itself. It can't reach every horse, but does some incredibly valuable work and the fact that it was set up at all shows a real commitment from the industry regulator. Racing is changing, imo. Thankfully! Separating out animals bred for meat and those which are not is a thought, but mightn't it leave those horses that (whether we like it or not) find themselves in last chance saloon without a way out? We've discussed on here before the fact that there is a fate worse than death. Of course it would be better to change attitudes and for them not to be there in the first place, but that takes time.
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Post by Pony-Nutt on Jan 19, 2013 20:41:57 GMT 1
Horrible news item but exposing it should make the firm clean up their act hopefully. I wonder if the varying intelligence of animals is what we see or are able to see and no what is actually there? I believe from my own experience with cows, sheep, and a bit with pigs, that the "variation" has a lot to do with what we actually see. Probably dint explain what I meant very well. Different people could maybe look at the same animal and see different things as what the human sees is their perception? Ive had one dog and one pony that really went the extra mile to communicate with me, both of them had had bad experiences with other people, they were so good at getting to me they had human qualities TO ME. Other people thought they were just another dog or another pony. So were they really good at communicating with people or was it what I alone saw? I will never know.
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Post by mandal on Jan 20, 2013 12:03:40 GMT 1
I'm totally against the current horse for meat trade, so please don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure that I'd be quite so clear cut that horses aren't suitable to be farmed/eaten but other species are. A cow/pig/sheep's reactions to fear and stress may be different to a horse's, but just because we are used to the concept of one as food and the other as sport/recreation/etc doesn't mean that the species fall into those neat categories. I agree. The smell of the cattle droppings on Mart day local to me is vile, sour and not at all normal. I believe going to Mart then slaughter is extremely stressful for any animal. In my opinion we need to look at the animals for meat question for all species not just horses. Horses pose more of a risk in the food chain as their movement, drug treatment etc. is not tightly regulated. If eating horses that have been given bute is not allowed for human consumption why and is it ok for pet food?
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