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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 20:22:53 GMT 1
Hay according to weight, means they have been taught principals based on the working of a stabled cavalry and not taught principals based on the workings of a horse's gut. Not sure I agree there. I use bodyweight as a guide. A horse's gut needs around 2% of their bodyweight per day in fibre, that's based on how the gut works, not on the cavalry mandal - I would have agreed with you until I went to a talk by Prof. Andy Durham from Liphook last week, he really put some things in context for me. In short he said he puts obese horses to sleep very regularly due to laminitis, he has never put one to sleep due to gastric ulcers. I went through a phase of thinking horses must have ad-lib. Now I don't. I think they should have access to some forage for as much of the day as possible. The two aren't the same and I think the former leads to a lot of fat horses. For example, given a full hay hutch Henry would stand and eat until he was full. Then he'd sleep next to the hay, then wake up and continue eating... and so on. When I measured out 2% of his bodyweight in hay he ate that then wandered off grazing. He didn't have much grass and it had nothing in it but it was enough to nibble and so it kept him busy and more importantly kept him moving and he lost weight. On ad-lib hay he just got fatter and fatter.
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Post by cookie on Dec 27, 2012 20:33:15 GMT 1
mandal - I would have agreed with you until I went to a talk by Prof. Andy Durham from Liphook last week, he really put some things in context for me. In short he said he puts obese horses to sleep very regularly due to laminitis, he has never put one to sleep due to gastric ulcers. I went through a phase of thinking horses must have ad-lib. Now I don't. I think they should have access to some forage for as much of the day as possible. That's really interesting Michelle. I'd love to do ad lib and have managed that in previous Winters with my boy, but this year I have really struggled with keeping his weight down. I think the weather coupled by less horses on the grazing really did for us and he went into winter heavier than I wished. More work from my sharer has worked but I've had to double net his hay and time the nets right to get the most out of his allocation. He still needs to lose just a little more before spring. Ulcers worry me, laminitis terrifies me. Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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Post by mandal on Dec 29, 2012 10:17:52 GMT 1
mandal - I would have agreed with you until I went to a talk by Prof. Andy Durham from Liphook last week, he really put some things in context for me. In short he said he puts obese horses to sleep very regularly due to laminitis, he has never put one to sleep due to gastric ulcers. Eh? I thought I was saying obesity is a major problem. Laminitis isn't just caused by obesity, horses can have high sugar/calorific diets and be skinny, fit and get laminitis. I believe it is quite common in racehorses. The effect of insufficient and high calorific forage isn't just a cause of gastric ulcers it affects the whole gut as well as the mental state of the horse unable to perform its natural behaviours. My beef about feeding small amounts of unsoaked hay to laminitics is there is no way of knowing the starch and sugar content of hay unless it is tested so to feed it unsoaked to a laminitic is taking a major risk, even in small quantity. Even soaking isn't always enough if the hay is very high in sugars. Put standing with nothing to eat for hours on top of that and it is a recipe for disaster imo. Feeding soaked hay or haylage tested (such as Marksway high fibre) is imho a much better practice and a good amount can be fed without weight gain (and even loss) because it is low in calories. Laminitis is a very complex condition and much still isn't understood but I personally don't believe adding yet more stress by feeding too small quantity of forage is at all helpful. To add and clarify my point. If you feed low sugar/starch forage then you can help beat laminitis, control weight and ward off gastric ulcers and hind gut problems (implicated in lamintis) because you can feed a much greater quantity. The question of which carries a more likely death sentence is then a moot one.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2012 14:59:38 GMT 1
Why do some vets still prescribe very limited amounts of (unsoaked!) hay to horses on box rest in acute laminitis?. This is why I replied to you. I totally agree re soaking and if possible testing forage so you can give more low calorie stuff. They did recommend that in the absence of nutrient testing to find coarser hay, possibly mix it with straw and soak it. I read this all the time on fora and it drives me nuts I'm afraid. If you read it on fora you can't know whether the horse is morbidly obese. Even if the owner knows it (and according to studies quoted at the talk I attended most are in major denial) they're not likely to admit it online. That might be why their vets are recommending drastic dieting. Obesity isn't the only cause of laminitis but I think they said it accounts for about 90% of cases those vets see.
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Post by mandal on Dec 29, 2012 16:28:01 GMT 1
Why do some vets still prescribe very limited amounts of (unsoaked!) hay to horses on box rest in acute laminitis?. This is why I replied to you. I totally agree re soaking and if possible testing forage so you can give more low calorie stuff. They did recommend that in the absence of nutrient testing to find coarser hay, possibly mix it with straw and soak it. I read this all the time on fora and it drives me nuts I'm afraid. If you read it on fora you can't know whether the horse is morbidly obese. Even if the owner knows it (and according to studies quoted at the talk I attended most are in major denial) they're not likely to admit it online. That might be why their vets are recommending drastic dieting. Obesity isn't the only cause of laminitis but I think they said it accounts for about 90% of cases those vets see. Of course I don't know if the horse is obese but my common sense tells me that giving 1 small slice twice (no recommendation to soak either) in 24 hours is not the way to diet an obese and feed a laminitic horse. That is the prescription that drives me nuts. Crash dieting/starvation isn't even the way humans are advised to diet and we don't have anywhere near such sensitive guts as horses appear to have. My argument is that prescribing soaked hay, tested low sugar/starch hay or a suitable haylage is a better way to go with laminitics and plain dieting as there is a reduction in calories with much less reduction in quantity of forage. It seems I don't agree with that vet. ;D To me it's all so simple in theory, low sugar starch forage is good for horses and a diet aid in weight loss and laminitis avoiding starvation and reducing the risk of ulcers at the same time. In practice owners are often stuck with livery and feed arrangements often not suitable for either obese horses or laminitics. I certainly agree obesity is a major problem that all of us have to tackle, whether it's avoiding it or dieting an overweight horse. I do agree many owners don't see it, I was one! However, most horses are overweight to varying degree so few of us are used to seeing horses at healthy weights. For me it shouldn't be a question of one illness is preferable to another when both can be guarded against and with the same/similar measures.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2012 19:14:05 GMT 1
For me it shouldn't be a question of one illness is preferable to another when both can be guarded against and with the same/similar measures. I agree - my point is that often by the time the vet is called the owner has already put the horse in the position where they do have to decide, because continuing to feed normal rations allows the lami to continue anbd leave the horse suffering for longer than necessary. That is probably why you keep seeing vet recommendations for strict dieting. Really is laminitis common in racehorses? The vets at this talk said that although possible, laminitis is incredibly rare in fit working horses, the vast majority are out of work, or only very lightly worked and obese.
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potto
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Post by potto on Dec 29, 2012 19:19:49 GMT 1
This is why I replied to you. I totally agree re soaking and if possible testing forage so you can give more low calorie stuff. They did recommend that in the absence of nutrient testing to find coarser hay, possibly mix it with straw and soak it. If you read it on fora you can't know whether the horse is morbidly obese. Even if the owner knows it (and according to studies quoted at the talk I attended most are in major denial) they're not likely to admit it online. That might be why their vets are recommending drastic dieting. Obesity isn't the only cause of laminitis but I think they said it accounts for about 90% of cases those vets see. Of course I don't know if the horse is obese but my common sense tells me that giving 1 small slice twice (no recommendation to soak either) in 24 hours is not the way to diet an obese and feed a laminitic horse. That is the prescription that drives me nuts. Crash dieting/starvation isn't even the way humans are advised to diet and we don't have anywhere near such sensitive guts as horses appear to have. My argument is that prescribing soaked hay, tested low sugar/starch hay or a suitable haylage is a better way to go with laminitics and plain dieting as there is a reduction in calories with much less reduction in quantity of forage. It seems I don't agree with that vet. ;D To me it's all so simple in theory, low sugar starch forage is good for horses and a diet aid in weight loss and laminitis avoiding starvation and reducing the risk of ulcers at the same time. In practice owners are often stuck with livery and feed arrangements often not suitable for either obese horses or laminitics. I certainly agree obesity is a major problem that all of us have to tackle, whether it's avoiding it or dieting an overweight horse. I do agree many owners don't see it, I was one! However, most horses are overweight to varying degree so few of us are used to seeing horses at healthy weights. For me it shouldn't be a question of one illness is preferable to another when both can be guarded against and with the same/similar measures. I am with you on this totally time to get used to seeing fit not fat horses and feeding preventative 'lami' diets or rather not feeding ....monthly weight tape measurements are a good guide of how things are headed and a record of work and current management schedule.
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Post by potto on Dec 29, 2012 19:26:58 GMT 1
Problems with feeding enough fibre that i have seen have been, elderly or young horses with dental problems. Horses being deliberately neglected or starved. Livery providing hay in cost then providing mouldy/dusty hay and haylage one bale of which had a dead badger in so concerns re botulism... obiously people then avoid or try to buy in own hay or limit hay intake and use other feeds or turn out depending on finances. Also told to soak and no facilities. Quality of forage and overall availability and cost and difficulties with delivery and access with weather or timing etc. Turnout ? if available and how long management of, how much ? shared or own and if allowed all year, plus worm management. Other people managing horse and their ideas.. trust issues. Horse stressing in field or stable will stop eating and limit amount of forage eating. Illness.
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Post by mandal on Dec 30, 2012 9:47:11 GMT 1
Really is laminitis common in racehorses? The vets at this talk said that although possible, laminitis is incredibly rare in fit working horses, the vast majority are out of work, or only very lightly worked and obese. I got that possibility from stuff I've read over the years. A quick google brought this up first, haven't time atm to search properly I'm afraid. www.horseracing.com/blog/laminitis-in-racehorses/I'm sure you are correct and the vast majority with laminitis are obese, unfit horses but I still don't see how starving them helps even in the short term. Sadly vets are frustrated when owners just wont or cant follow the dietary restrictions. My feeling is when faced with acute laminitis there is no choice but to find a way but I realize I may be being unrealistic. I do believe some owners just don't believe how important diet is in laminitis and they look to vets and farriers to provide a cure. I learned that most of the 'work' in recovery and management is down to me, vets can only do so much, it's the day to day care that has the most impact. My belief is liveries and the culture have to change and provide ways of addressing dietary issues/laminitis with tracks, grass free turnout, well made hay/haylage etc. Sadly the grass and even hay most of us are stuck with is full of calories for much of the year and with the weather changing this is likely to become an even worse problem. Anyway, apologies for dragging the thread a bit off topic and babbling on.
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Post by Bella on Jan 2, 2013 15:26:40 GMT 1
I had to completely change my management as 3 years ago my mare came down with laminitis and was on complete box rest for 8 long months. She is fine now and with careful management she has not had a relapse....runs to touch wood My mare used to be out 24/7 in the summer months and was stabled at night in the winter months. I would feed ad-lib hay and her feed was 1x scoop Dengie good doer. For the last 3 years her management has been strict, I weigh her with the weigh tape every 2 weeks and every 6 months she goes on the weigh bridge. I feed her 1.5% of her bodyweight as she is a very good doer. All her hay is weighed & soaked and I use the pony elim-a-nets as they have the smallest mesh, I put 4 around her stable. On a morning she eats hay whilst I muck out then she gets exercised, afterwards turned out muzzled at noon. I bring her in about 5ish and she gets 2 x cups of Fast Fibre with 1 x scoop of Happy Hoof. This routine seems to suit her well, I have gone to the yard at 11.00pm at night and she has still got hay.
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Post by mandal on Jan 3, 2013 14:33:31 GMT 1
Really is laminitis common in racehorses? The vets at this talk said that although possible, laminitis is incredibly rare in fit working horses, the vast majority are out of work, or only very lightly worked and obese. Sorry to quote you again Michelle but I forgot about this point until I just read post 8 by CrackerZ here. www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=584940Of course it's just her/his experience, not research but it confirms what I've read over the years.
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Post by clipclop on Jan 4, 2013 8:54:55 GMT 1
Just something I thought with regards to something posted above about how the vet hadn't ever put a horse down due to ulcers.
Maybe not directly but how many horses with behavioural issues caused by ulcers have been put to sleep for being dangerous or been sold and gone through sales, possibly ending up going for meat eventually?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2013 12:15:02 GMT 1
Obviously no one can ever know that clipclop. I think the comment has to be taken in context. Which is that of a vet attending lami caused by obesity, regularly putting those horses or ponies to sleep because the lami is so severe, and putting the ones they can save on very strict diets and in doing so never having caused ulcers bad enough to rival the lami.
I accept fit horses can get lami, my comments only relate to obesity induced cases which account for the vast majority of cases my vets see.
To throw another question up ... I wonder whether the Lami Clinic might see a skewed population (i.e. not representative of the general population) because presumably they get the cases that are most difficult to treat... and obesity induced lami has a pretty obvious treatment route, whereas lami in fit horses would be harder to identify and treat the cause?
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Post by mandal on Jan 4, 2013 16:57:27 GMT 1
To throw another question up ... I wonder whether the Lami Clinic might see a skewed population (i.e. not representative of the general population) because presumably they get the cases that are most difficult to treat... and obesity induced lami has a pretty obvious treatment route, whereas lami in fit horses would be harder to identify and treat the cause? I expect they do see a skewed population, I'm not sure how funding works for them. If insurance pay with vet referral then I imagine it's less skewed. As far as I'm aware the treatment for all laminitis is similar... ie. eliminate/treat the cause (if it can be identified) adjust diet and hoof support and trim. If diet wasn't always a factor why is diet always a consideration in treatment... You would expect just a detox or if the cause is deemed to be concussion, rest to be enough.
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Post by mandal on Jan 6, 2013 13:20:37 GMT 1
Do any of you have problems feeding your horse enough fibre? Or do you see people around you who clearly aren't feeding enough fibre? We've got a great potential article for the IH magazine about the good points about feeding fibre (I'm sure most old time DGers are well educated on this) and I'd like to ask the writer to add some pointers about why it doesn't always happen - to bring the article into the 'real world' a bit. I think there's a lot of people know what they 'should' do but they can't or don't because ...? Can you help me with your questions or stories? To go back to your original questions Kelly. Can I first ask what is enough fibre? Can we gauge/measure this in a simple way? Ad lib hay/haylage/grass is an obvious way but as some of us know, completely add lib can lead to fat horses... Is number of poos passed a reliable measure? lol Fibre content of grass is a consideration too I think. I think a common scenario when not enough fibre is given when people for eg. put one ordinary net/one to two flakes in a stable and leave for 12 hours. A totally bare, grazed down field is potentially another. Flakes of hay vary tremendously so feeding by flake instructions can be meaningless.
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