esther
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Post by esther on Jan 6, 2012 9:07:21 GMT 1
i can see how how it is quick and calm and loads have people have told me to have them shot because its so much cheaper, but for me personally i wouldnt care if i was made bankrupt i would rather have the injection for my horses, i would like the last image i have of them to be laying peaceful not with a hole in the head, but that is my opinion i no everyones different The problem is that unless you are very very lucky, horses don't just lie down and go to sleep. In my whole life I have only ever known one do that and he was a youngster with a failing heart. However it happens, when you are talking about half a ton of horse, both the issue of doing the deed and disposing afterwards is a logistical nightmare and is unlikely to be pretty. Believe me, compared to the rest of the process, whether or not they have a small hole in their head is the very smallest of the unpleasant memories. When my old mare was standing there with her leg hanging off, if I had had a gun I would have done the deed myself Waiting for the vet while she went into shock was one of the worst things I have ever experienced. All we can hope is that if we need to intervene then whoever does it is quick and knowledgeable and experienced and compassionate. When speed is of the essence, your preferred method may have to take second place to whatever method is at hand. ps If anyone is in the Yorkshire area, I can thoroughly recommend Yorkshire Equine Crematorium.
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Post by Francis Burton on Jan 6, 2012 10:05:41 GMT 1
The problem is that unless you are very very lucky, horses don't just lie down and go to sleep. In my whole life I have only ever known one do that and he was a youngster with a failing heart. What you say implies that the horse is still conscious (not asleep) by the time he is on the ground - lying down comes first and then sleep ensues. But is that true? As I understand it, barbiturate anaesthetics cause such rapid loss of consciousness at the doses used for euthanasia that the animal is essentially gone within a few seconds of the intravenous bolus hitting the brain. Moreover, it is the loss of consciousness that causes the animal to go down. Anything else seen after that, such as gasping or limb movement, is purely reflex and the horse will not be aware of anything at that stage. Also, the heart may go on beating for a little while afterwards, especially if a specific heart-stopping drug like cinchocaine isn't included in the injection (which I believe is the recommendation these days). But then, the heart can go on beating for up to 20 minutes following shooting. Even though that means the animal isn't technically/'officially' dead, loss of brain function by either cause - barbiturate or bullet - ensures the animal doesn't suffer. It is inconceivable that the veterinary profession would recommend procedures for euthanasia that caused the animal to suffer or had a significant chance of doing so - so the choice between injection and shooting cannot be made on that basis.
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daisysp8
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Post by daisysp8 on Jan 6, 2012 10:25:16 GMT 1
Having seen and discussed uses of Barbiturate/Pentobarbital when i worked at DEFRA, through the foot and mouth crisis, they do usual work quickly ... However it depends on the animal. I have seen their natural fight/flight responses kick in, and the adrenaline produced hampers the effect of the barbiturate. This is why in the end bolts and pithing rods were used to ensure a quick death.
For the most part, horses go down quickly and are 'gone' ... But there are others who will fight even very large doses, as their natural survival instincts of staying on their feet kick in, and so it becomes more of a struggle for them and the people surrounding them.
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Post by gporter1 on Jan 6, 2012 11:04:07 GMT 1
I have seen one horse fight the injection and that was very upsetting - big, fit horse who had gotten tetanus and was collapsed on the floor (outside, in pouring down rain - don't ask, bloody owners). Vet came and and injected and injected this horse and she just wouldn't die, it was awful, he used everything he had and then said he would have to shoot her but she did finally go before it came to that - personally I wish he had shot her in the beginning as she was in such a state but bloody owner wouldn't have it. However, I've also been with three other horses who were pts with injection and it was very quick, calm and peaceful, and really the ideal way to see a horse go (if there is such a thing). I have never been with a horse that is shot, but heard the most horrific story from close friends who had one of theirs shot by local huntsman - will not go into detail, enough to say it went very badly wrong. My decision for mine will depend on the horse and the circumstance, the two who are needle phobic will be shot and the others will depend on the situation at the time - I will be guided by the vet and the degree of emergency or otherwise. I tend to think (and this is just my opinion, no evidence at all) that old and/or weaker horses are a safer bet for injection, but young, fit and strong animals with, say, a broken limb, may be more inclined to fight it. I am sure both ways can go well, and both ways can be awful, it's a personal choice and all we can hope for is to do the best for our friends when the time comes.
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Post by Francis Burton on Jan 6, 2012 11:13:38 GMT 1
Having seen and discussed uses of Barbiturate/Pentobarbital when i worked at DEFRA, through the foot and mouth crisis, they do usual work quickly ... However it depends on the animal. I have seen their natural fight/flight responses kick in, and the adrenaline produced hampers the effect of the barbiturate. This is why in the end bolts and pithing rods were used to ensure a quick death. That's interesting, because I'd have thought the adrenaline would actually hasten the distribution of barbiturate through the brain and CNS by making the heart beat faster. The issue of "fighting the dose" often comes up in these kind of discussions. With you knowledge and experience, can you say a bit more about what is actually happening there and how the animal is able to delay the effect of the barbiturate on the brain? I just can't see how this can happen, unless perhaps the dose was too small to begin with, or if Somulose was used (with the heart stopping drug component) and the injection was given too quickly, stopping the heart before the brain receives an adequate dose - neither of which should happen if the vet follows the correct procedure.
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Post by ellijay on Jan 6, 2012 11:17:25 GMT 1
Thankyou for posting this it has generated a really thought provoking and informative discussion. Like others who have posted I havent had to face this yet and dread it but the information has helped me. I have had this poem on my computer for a while and thought it might be a fitting time to post it in this thread, it always makes me emotional but its lovely:
IF IT SHOULD BE
If it should be that I grow weak, and pain should keep me from my sleep. Then you must do what must be done, for this last battle cannot be won.,
You will be sad, I understand, don't let your grief then stay your hand. For this day more than all the rest, your love for me must stand the test.
We've had so many happy years, what is to come can hold no fears. You'd not want me to suffer so, the time has come, please let me go.
Take me where my needs they'll tend, and please stay with me until the end. Hold me firm and speak to me, until my eyes no longer see.
I know in time that you will see, the kindness that you did for me. Although my tail its last has waved, from pain and suffering, I've been saved.
Please do not grieve it must be you, who had this painful thing to do. We've been so close, we two, these years, don't let your heart hold back its tears.
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Post by Francis Burton on Jan 6, 2012 11:24:30 GMT 1
I have seen one horse fight the injection and that was very upsetting - big, fit horse who had gotten tetanus and was collapsed on the floor (outside, in pouring down rain - don't ask, bloody owners). Vet came and and injected and injected this horse and she just wouldn't die, it was awful, he used everything he had and then said he would have to shoot her but she did finally go before it came to that ... How awful! In this case, it does sound like the heart was beating very slowly (so not completely stopped) before the drug had time to be delivered to the brain and CNS - something that can happen if the drug is injected too quickly. Regrettably, there are no totally reliable methods of large animal euthanasia because achieving success every time depends on the vet having the needed skill in the chosen method, and occasionally things can go wrong.
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Post by Francis Burton on Jan 6, 2012 11:26:13 GMT 1
I have had this poem on my computer for a while and thought it might be a fitting time to post it in this thread, it always makes me emotional but its lovely Oh God, me too - I'm crying now.
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esther
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Post by esther on Jan 6, 2012 11:48:55 GMT 1
Sorry Francis – I didn’t phrase that very well. I wasn’t inferring that horses that are put down suffer through the process – either method is usually very quick and painless.
I was referring to the comments about the human’s lasting memories of the process. What I meant was that horses don’t usually lie down and die of their own accord while they are asleep, they either drop dead suddenly of their own accord (generally in the most inconvenient place) or we have to intervene by making the final decision. But even though the horse doesn’t know any different, us managing the logistics of moving/disposing of half a ton plus of deadweight isn’t pretty. And if they’ve had the inconvenience of dropping dead somewhere inconvenient, then it really isn’t pretty. Those memories are far less pretty than the mere fact of seeing them with a small hole in the head.
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Post by Francis Burton on Jan 6, 2012 11:58:13 GMT 1
That makes complete sense, Esther - thank you for clarifying.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 12:21:10 GMT 1
Having had both methods used on horses in the past it really is a matter of personal choice.
Fudge our rescue was PTS by injection, she was already down as she was so weak from malnutrition when we got her the damage was irreversible, that and a few other complications we have only found out about when the PM was done, in her case it was quick and very painless, the vet was quiet and knew her job, she was just as upset about losing her as we all were.
The other one was my lovely TB Oggie many many years ago, he was shot by the local huntsman, after suffering from what at the time was deemed a stroke, the man again was very calm and quiet and it was over in seconds.
Its personal choice and depends on the owner to make that choice when the time comes. All we can do is make sure we give them the end that is quick painless and as dignified as possible.
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Post by jennyb on Jan 6, 2012 13:01:34 GMT 1
In my recent experience, I do wonder if the stories of animals taking a while to die from the injection come from the catheter not being correctly inserted. I assume that you would have to be very certain that the barbiturates would be going straight into the blood stream and not leaking out into surrounding tissue. The vet who put Cosworth to sleep was very concerned that the catheter was not quite right, so he fiddled with it and made absolutely sure that it was all ok before giving the injection, and it all went very smoothly. I can see that perhaps a less experienced vet, or one who was worried about the process, may have overlooked the exact positioning and just tried to get on with it. I was very grateful for his care anyway, I thought it could have been very traumatic for all concerned had he administered the barbiturates when the catheter was not correctly placed.
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daisysp8
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Post by daisysp8 on Jan 6, 2012 14:41:22 GMT 1
Francis, i`m not a vet or a scientist, i just took care of the vets, helped with bagging and body disposal, and was incharge of the blood security, drugs room, and i kept an inventory of who had what. (sadly we had a vet take 3 bottles, lace it with whiskey, and kill himself).
If a vet checked out more than the usual amount, i would have to question why, sometimes bottles would have been smashed/stood on etc. But other times certain animals would have needed a lot larger dose as they would 'fight' it.
Now wether that was down to the catheter not being fitted correctly as mentioned, or a chemical fight with in the body itself, i honestly don`t know.
On a similar vein, having had anesthetics myself, 3 didn`t go according to plan. 2 of them my body fought it, and i didn`t go to sleep, this was after being told i`d had enough to knock out a 14 stone man lol ... On a different occasion one of them numbed my diaphragm, causing me to not be able to draw in breath, but didn`t knock me out, and i was fully concious and petrified.
As much as we`d like to think it is, it isn`t always an exact science, and both options has the scope to go wrong.
But i do feel it is better to be well informed of both choices, as it demystifies it for one, and helps us feel better prepared (if you ever can be) for the loss of a beloved animal.
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