Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 21, 2011 18:54:42 GMT 1
My previous post leads on to something else really worth thinking about here: if one changes the bit and discovers that their horse is now 'not leaning on the hands', it's very important to understand whether this is because he is now backing off the bit or changing his balance while still seeking a contact. The first situation is actually quite dangerous - the horse is now 'behind the bit' and effectively out of control. You won't necessarily recognise the problem, though, until it's too late and the horse has taken off and/or dumped you! This can also be a problem even when riding in a bitless bridle. The second situation puts the horse in a good balance AND the rider in control. As I said in my post above, lightness is NOT the same thing as loose reins (though just to confuse the issue, if a horse is correctly light, the reins may have loops in them from time to time! ). Understanding the difference is the key to safety, control and staying on board, though. Unfortunately, I'm speaking with a certificate from the School of Hard Knocks, here. I had to fall off some particularly tricky horses a number of times before I finally met someone (Philippe Karl) who could properly explain why it was happening and show me how to stop doing it. I hope that helps at least someone spare a few bruises, anyway. Lol! Derek
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Post by Beth&Rosie on Nov 21, 2011 19:14:56 GMT 1
Sometimes a "heavy" mouthed horse just doesn't understand what is being asked of him. As horses are "into pressure" animals, the horse will then just lean into the contact. In this case, heavy hands will make the problem worse: the more you pull, the more the horse leans. The horse will always win a pulling battle, he is MUCH bigger than you are. In this case, training with "light" but effective hands is imperative, take it back to basics and progress one tiny step at a time until your horse can understand what is being asked of him with just the lightest touch. This is a "light" mouthhed horse.
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Post by dudypony on Nov 21, 2011 20:56:44 GMT 1
I reckon Light hand create a light mouth - how can you teach your horse to respond to light hands if you use heavy hands?! Plus you can use Kelly's "1-10" Scale, light hands first then if no response get slightly tougher! I agree that "Lightness' should not be - but very frequently is - confused with loose reins. They are not the same thing at all!" x
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 21, 2011 21:01:57 GMT 1
Hi dudypony,
Actually, you've introduced another but also very important element there...
One way of defining lightness is the amount of contact when it's held consistent over a period of time. A second and different element is the rate of change of the contact whenever the rider gives an aid.
I agree completely that all aids should begin very 'lightly' before increasing the volume if that proves to be necessary. If you happen to be carrying a stick, tapping with it provides an excellent alternative to having to increase the 'heaviness' of the aid if the light version is ignored. That's one good reason in favour of riding with one...
As the old masters said, "the whip ensures the horse's good manners".
Derek
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Post by nich on Nov 22, 2011 9:10:12 GMT 1
I have had an interesting journey in lightness, with help from Derek and Annabelle, reading Phillipe Karl and LOTS of practice. When I bought home my lovely Brio 18 months ago I discovered fairly quickly that my usual riding school style didn't work. I had appalling control of the halt, and very bad steering. She is sensitive, and didn't understand the bit at all, so I went through the usual bit trials, but it seemed nothing suited her - myler, KK ultra, pee wee, hanging cheek.... Of course it wasn't just the bit, it was the hands too.
Derek taught me about educating the mouth from the ground, and learning to ride from the hands - which sounds odd when you 'think' you have light hands and should be using them less. And it took months and months of doing ground work with the bit before school work, practicing halt transitions constantly, before it started to come together (OK, confession, I only school once or twice a week maximum - but I do practice on hacks).
I am now working on a consistent touch, and using the reins to signal a change coming (not the traditional half halt).
So I have spent a year or so working with Brio, and it is really coming together. Her mouth is lighter and so are my hands. I only wish I had known this 10 years ago with my retired horse, who had learned the hard way to have a hard mouth.
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 22, 2011 9:57:31 GMT 1
Hi nich, Glad things are all coming together for you now. You raise yet another very important point for a discussion about hands and lightness: Dealing with 'contact' is a very complex business, for both horse and rider. The vast majority of training and teaching approaches deal with this complexity by trying to avoid it all together. To me , at least, this seems like a very strange way of pursuing knowledge and understanding! Natural Horsemanship approaches avoid it by working in non-touch (i.e. working with a loop in the line or work at liberty or in a round pen) while modern 'dressage' teaching avoids it by suggesting that the rider should use the hands and seat as the main aids with the hands 'not being used'. If the rider really weren't using her hands, however, she would be able to stick them in her pockets without it making a blind bit of difference. While doing that is perfectly possible with a trained horse, it's patently not possible (nor advisable) with an untrained horse unless you have very good life insurance and a bit of a death wish... The reality, unfortunately, is that many riders are using their hands in what horses consider to be a rather clumsy and unpleasant way, while believing - and being told by instructors - that they aren't using them at all and blaming the poor horse when he objects to what's going on... While there are good reasons to use either or both of the above approaches in certain circumstances, neither of them give a rider the full understanding of the effects of their aids nor the ability to train and ride very difficult or very sensitive horses to a high level. The evidence of these downsides includes a) the number of people involved with natural horsemanship type methods who end up working a lot and very well with their horse on the ground but who are still too scared to ride and b) the number of dressage horses who are left stressed, annoyed, angry or broken down by the 'system' of training and/or riding they are subjected to. Historically, the reason these approaches were developed is not because they are magically effective or that they are more precise or more elegant, it's actually exactly the opposite. By removing the possibility of 'touch' the systems can neatly skirt round the fact that learning to use touch well is difficult and takes a lot of practice. As Nich says, though, using the hands lightly involves learning to use them well rather than avoiding touching the horse's mouth altogether. In the vast majority of cases of horses who 'don't like the bit', the problem is not the bit itself but what is attached to the other end of the reins... One solution is to get rid of the bit altogether and as the knowledge of how to use one properly becomes harder to find (or perhaps just harder to believe thanks to the way our riding culture has developed...?) that is becoming a more and more popular answer. If one takes the time to learn how to use the hands well, however, it opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Derek
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Post by misty on Nov 22, 2011 10:30:51 GMT 1
As I now ride western all the things that Derek says are very appropriate. We ride with long reins but when at rest, giving a reward we use loose reins. When training the amount of pressure depends on the horse. The aim being that the horse learns that when it does what is required the pressure comes off and in future a light pressure can be used. I'm basically a happy hacker and I want my horse to enjoy the ride too. Through the years I have seen many people who just don't seem to have a 'feel' either the horse is permanently held in or so loose if it did anything there was no control. I am now thinking of getting some rein chains, in western we are told that heavy reins are best as you use less aid because the horse gets the message quicker and softer. Sorry about the ramble but would really appreciate Derek's thoughts on the heavier reins. I started Rosie rope reins and slobber straps and she has a very light mouth.
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Post by holi on Nov 22, 2011 10:59:37 GMT 1
I have a pony that does not like a contact at all and is compounded by the fact that she has a very sensitive mouth that goes very pink and sore easily if you take a slightly too strong contact. I am trying to teach her to accept a light contact but its very difficult because you need brakes but must always be mindful of hurting her. In the past she has been ridden bitless (when her previous owner had a problem) and I think this is the way to go. What I'm trying to add is that sometimes it is very difficult to educate a horse to accpeting a contact, however good your hands, when they have a physical problem.
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 22, 2011 11:47:31 GMT 1
Yet another point arising... The assumption introduced by the 'dressage' system I described above is that 'good' hands never move, or at least not very much. This leads to two significant problems; Firstly, if the hands really don't move then there will be no light contact between hand and mouth because for that to exist the hands must 'harmonise' with the movements of the head and neck. A horse that is ridden without this harmony soon learns to back off from the bit to avoid the constant and annoying jangling in his mouth. Secondly, if the hands are not allowed to move then how are they supposed to influence? The only possible answer is by resisting - which leads to the belief that 'using the hands' means causing pressure in a backwards direction. 'Educated' hands (a technical term in French riding!) act by either raising, lowering or moving sideways. There is never a backwards traction caused by the rider. Once the rider understands how to do these actions then the mere weight of the rein becomes a significant signal as it moves. So, to answer Misty's question; yes, 'heavier' reins can be very useful, provided you act upwards or sideways with your hands. If you act backwards (eg by closing the fingers) then they make little or no difference. I ride with 7/8 inch or 1 inch wide reins myself because of the advantage the extra weight brings. That won't necessarilly work for everyone, though - I have quite big hands ;D Holi said: I totally agree. Many times a horse will refuse to accept contact more because of difficulties in other parts of the body than in the mouth itself. Another reason why changing the bit isn't the real answer... the mouth is where the symptoms show but frequently not the site of the cause of the problem. The problem for the rider/trainer is to be able to 'fix' the difficulties in other parts of the body without irritating the horse's mouth. One approach is to avoid touching the mouth in the short term - using a headcollar or cavesson with reins attached, or working in a round pen or with a loose line. But, and it's a big but, what you can do with the horse's posture and degree of relaxation in the muscles is very limited in these situations compared to what an educated hand with a bit can achieve. Often the most effective way of making real progress is to work the horse (possibly in-hand) via the bit (with an educated hand, of course) because the horse's head and neck provides the most immediate connection to the rest of the spine. "Contact' issues are almost always a combination of the quality of the rider's hands AND the effects of the horse's habitual posture. A 'poor' posture can be the result of less than ideal conformation but it can also be the direct result of a horse's attempts to avoid unpleasant hand actions. It's important to understand, I think, that changing to a bitless setup may well make the symptoms in the mouth go away in the short term, but unless the postural issues are addressed there will quit possibly be further problems down the line that may be much harder to fix. The only real, long-term solution to the postural issues is to learn to ride as well as possible, including the use of the hands. In my personal opinion, I think we all owe it to our horses to learn to ride as best we can. It's a lifelong journey but - and this is also important - the pleasure lies in the journey, not the destination. Derek
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Post by Rosie J on Nov 22, 2011 12:18:12 GMT 1
Firstly, the horse can have a 'heavy' mouth in tons of different ways - -horse who doesnt understand the aid to slow down -yougsnter who is still into pressure in his/her reactions to the reins - may even get faster when you use them. -horse who doesnt want to slow down and is not respectful of the rein aids/rider control -horse who cant figure out how to balance enough to slow down -horse who has learned the pressure never goes away anyway and has a 'dead' unreactive mouth -horse who has been taught to push -'into the contact', (often relaxes but and lengthens if you release the reins) - horse that has been taught to overbend rather than respond 'normally' to rein pressure -horse who leans downwards on the bit, falls forwards if you release the reins -horse who as learned to pull/tense up against the bit, speeds up if you release the reins -horse who hangs out when turning - falling out the shoulder/napping to the gate -horse who falls in when turning and feels like a piece of wood
All of the above (and more Im sure) could be called having a heavy mouth and need approaching in quite different ways regarding the riders hand technique.
However, I feel as though as a rider I try to make a commitment towards having light hands regardless. Lets get real in saying that if it was as simple as 'having light hands makes a light mouth' then many more of us would be at Grand Prix level, but the reality of it is, if you have a horse who is already 'strong' 'dead' or 'heavy' in the mouth, light hands alone wont change that, you need training plans. While we are getting real, I also want to say I have seen a rider with very 'heavy' hands achieve great lightness from a horse - because they were incredibly black and white about putting pressure on the horse at the right time and releasing it at the right time. I suppose that assumes that we are taking heavy hands to mean using bursts of quite a lot of force, but not bad timing or constant pressure - thats entirely uneducated hands and I suppose some people might also call that heavy but thats not what I'm getting at here. I'm talking about amount of force.
I think the thing to do is to commit to only using light hands (and we each have to ocme up with a feeling in our hands that is our own ethical pressure limit) and then come up with cunning training plans to make sure that no more pressure is needed.
For example, if a horse doesnt back up lightly ridden, sure you could teach him to respect your rein aids with a stronger bit, good feel and timing and big releases and a fair whack of pressure, if you ask once lightly, and then school him with more pressure, he will soon learn to respond to the light ask. But, if this goes beyong the commitment to light hands that you have made, then you have to think again - perhaps you need to revisit groundwork, have someone on the ground to move the horse for you,or a wall in front, or put it on a voice cue, use a neck strap, practice on the longlines, or at least put the reins on the dually so that you are working round the commitment you have made to that horses mouth. Equally, if a horse leans on the bit, Yes, an upward short sharp lift with one rein will stop that, but if you HAD to do it without pulling, what would you come up with? Perhaps asking for shorter periods of self carraige, over raised poles to assist to start with, or using lateral work to help create the shape on a light rein, with big releases. The key seems to be remembering pressure and release - it seems to go out the window with much conventional schooling but educating the horses mouth to respond to pressures by seeking to release them by offering different body movements or positions, seems the way to go. You get my point ... I have seen that in reality, some level of 'clarity' (which for some owners would border on roughness) does in fact create a light mouth. But, the challenge is, can you create this lightness while sticking to your commitment to the weight you are willing to put down each rein?
This of course needs to be balanced with the fact that gently, consistantly offering half-aids' and gradually getting stronger over time as the horse learns to ignore, is the one surefire way to create a dead mouth, so rather than gentle, I think the key word must be clear. But, the challenge is to reach that clarity in a way that does not require strength. And, (like one of my new clients) if the challenge is riding an 18hh ID in an open space that has learned to really pull, that takes some brainpower!
(back to essay...)
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Post by Hannah on Nov 22, 2011 16:19:27 GMT 1
"Light mouth" to me means an educated mouth. Light hands or heavy hands for that matter, will not cause the mouth to become educated, unless the hands are attached to someone who knows how to educate the mouth. It is much easier to teach a young uneducated mouth than a badly educated one.
I believe light hands can only really exist if you have a truly independent seat, and core body control. But light hands are much easier to develop if you have an educated mouth to begin with...
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Post by heather on Nov 22, 2011 18:10:44 GMT 1
No light hands without a seat that is totally independent of the reins, no seat that is not independent of the reins, no light mouth!
Heather
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Post by heather on Nov 22, 2011 18:13:08 GMT 1
Haha I wrote that post having not read Hannah's post! Good on you Hannah, an excellent reply from one of my EE teacher trainees, you did a better job than I did!!
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Post by curlytobiano on Nov 22, 2011 18:21:09 GMT 1
There is rightly a lot of emphasis on developing 'light' or 'educated' hands in the rider. Not asking for short cuts - and ignore if too off topic - but are there recognised ways to improve one's 'lightness' when not in the saddle? I guess there are a good few of us who get to ride only a couple of times a week and not under instruction each time - do people think we and our horses (unless very lucky) are doomed to heavy hands or can we educate ourselves some other way?
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Post by Rosie J on Nov 22, 2011 18:38:54 GMT 1
Anyone who has been on the 5 day foundation course knows the value of human to human blindfolded longlining for developping lightness!I think loading and longlining also does wonders for lightness, feel and timing with the hands while not on a horse - but then saying that it can also help you practice your heavy handedness if not done correctly so I suppose again its the chicken and egg!! Also, small aside, but the material of the reins can make the world of difference for developping 'feel' - I have just ordered some braided material reins to be made by Sandra W.
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