Amanda Seater
Grand Prix Poster
Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
Posts: 3,866
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Post by Amanda Seater on Nov 22, 2011 18:46:44 GMT 1
Ok - so I feel I need to elaborate on what I said earlier. Forgive me as my written word isn't up to much at the present moment. I am in a more saying and demonstrating mode. so anyway not in any particular order... I may have to finish a bit more later... Derek - hi I agree with this comment and if I had a bangs head on wall emoticon I would use it! I don't agree that ( all ) western avoids contact by only ever riding with a loop in the reins. and I will talk about this as I continue. It does depend highly upon whom you are watching. The question comes then what is a light mouth?( as Derek asked and probably answered) can we take the horses mouth as an individual part or like the rider and their hands as a whole.? So taking the meaning of lightness as a whole I would say that is a horse that responds happily , willingly and immediately to the request of the rider. That needs training. It is how we train that makes the difference. I agree with Rosie J when she states that many light aids can desensitise the horse and make it heavy an example of this would be dead to the leg. Now the natural horse folk that I choose to follow from time to time seem to believe in decent of the aids ( perhaps Derek that is what you are seeing as a pemanent loose rein) as do us that follow a more French classical style. SO what do we want? - we want the horse to do something so we give the horse an aid ( a hint, a que ) call it what you will. We want the horse to react in the way we are thinking, but as horses aren't able to read our minds in such a specific manor we may have to give another hint to make what we desire clear - perhaps a previously learned verbal que, on the floor we would use body language perhaps or a visual something like the flick of a rope etc. Here, we are talking rein aids. In the ideal world and i am sorry if I am repeating what someone else has said we want the horse to yield to pressure either physical( by touching perhaps with the bit hopefuly only ever acting on the corners of the horse mouth) or implied pressure ( energy or non physical ie walking into their space) In order for a small aid to work it needs to be trained and that subtle aid needs to be effective and we can all imagine our own ways of making that effective . some use pressure and release, some use clicker training etc. other use a combination so is it not so much about heavy or light hands / mouth than the effectiveness of aids and how subtle and light we can make them? One final though - and PLEASE I am being general. If we are heavy with our aids in connection withthe horses mouth why are we not heavy when going bitless? I imagine some are still pulling on the nose/chin etc but some have simply had to become more effective with their communication Ok - I hope that made some sense - be gentle I am fragile at the moment!
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Amanda Seater
Grand Prix Poster
Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
Posts: 3,866
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Post by Amanda Seater on Nov 22, 2011 19:37:47 GMT 1
Just to add - surely we would like to have light hands when doing work in hand.so no seat involved there and surely to create an educated mouth - effective tact and a lightness along with excellent timing of release are required to create such an educated mouth.
so I would say on most untouched horses a light and effective hand will create a light and educated mouth..
BUT the more I think about it the more symantics I can play withthe words we are choosing. Hey ho..
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Post by Dragonmaster on Nov 23, 2011 10:56:27 GMT 1
I have a pony that does not like a contact at all and is compounded by the fact that she has a very sensitive mouth that goes very pink and sore easily if you take a slightly too strong contact. I am trying to teach her to accept a light contact but its very difficult because you need brakes but must always be mindful of hurting her. In the past she has been ridden bitless (when her previous owner had a problem) and I think this is the way to go. What I'm trying to add is that sometimes it is very difficult to educate a horse to accpeting a contact, however good your hands, when they have a physical problem. Hi Holi, Just wanted to say that I have had very good results with a DrCook bitless bridle. I believe Rosie was ragged around as a child's show jumping pony with a former owner and she objected to bit pressure of any kind. As we only hack I use a very light contact - almost no contact at some times - but she still tossed her head. When I got the Dr Cook we had to do about 10 minutes re-training as her first thought seemed to be "no bit - I can go as fast as I like!" but a few one rein stops sorted that out and she realised the rider was still in charge, and we have never looked back. Oh, and in case anyone thinks that by riding with no contact I'm letting my horses slop along on the forehand, I dont, like Heather says I have an independent seat and good balance and I use them to good effect, and I do some 'schooling' while hacking. But I am also able to relax and enjoy the countryside as well.
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Post by strawberryfields on Nov 23, 2011 12:46:58 GMT 1
I would also like to vote for for no light hands unless you have a good seat. So many nice animals have their mouths ruined by novicey riders who think that riding a horse is like riding a bicycle, all legs and hands (I know that's an over simplification),
It's not hard to put a nice mouth on a horse, I agree that a lot of ground work, particularly with a dually halter (I only tried one last year) teaches the horse to respond to pressure in the right way, although again it comes down to ask and release all the time.
To respond to the original statement if there isn't a light mouth, then hands should be even lighter to try to lighten the mouth. I think I would try a lot of work in walk, changes of direction etc, to improve leg reaction, then transitions up and down, until I had a sensible contact, even if this meant radically changing the bit. I agree that sometimes this can encourage the horse to drop behind the bit, but this is exactly why reschooling should be left to professionals, no I mean people who can really ride (I know a lot of people who call themselves professionals that I wouldn't let on my daughter's pony).
Rant over, I'll go and get some valium now...
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Post by holi on Nov 23, 2011 15:51:22 GMT 1
Thanks dragonmaster - I have been thinking of it. My pony is very sensitive to my seat and changes direction etc easily. She does however not accept a contact. We have dropped the bit lower to try and make her hold the bit herself as an introduction to accepting it and I have long reined her off a dually to which she is responsive. She has been ridden in a straight bar Happy mouth in the past (english style) and also bitless (western style and english). She has a pink spotty mouth which gets easily sore (part appaloosa). I have been told I have an excellent seat and good hands yet still she fights until we have given her the rein. Ideas as once we ask for trot we get head up, rush and fight for head? Saddle, back etc all checked and fine - we just think she has been allowed to go like this in the past -I've only had her a few months. perhaps she is just confused!!
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 24, 2011 21:22:54 GMT 1
Holi said:
Hi Holi,
This is a very common scenario, actually. Your horse is one of the ones I mentioned earlier in this thread. It's not because she's confused, it's because she doesn't like the contact. That might be because in her opinion it's unpleasant (even though you've been complimented on how you ride!) or it might be just because she doesn't know how to make herself comfortable.
The head-up and rush is a sure sign that her balance is actually on the forehand. Explaining how to correct that in mere words is next to impossible but it's easy to show in practice. One way involves using circles with a bend through the horse's neck and body. Another way is to learn how to use the reins to achieve it directly. In short, you need to shift her balance towards the hindquarters and then encourage her to extend her neck in order to take the reins forward and a little downward with the contact on the corners of her mouth. Shifting the balance involves raising the base of the horse's neck while keeping the neck LONG. If you do anything that shortens or compresses the neck it will lead to this sort of trouble. You might want to reflect on your sentence about 'fighting' until you 'give her the rein'. Why are you 'taking' the reins in the first place...?
Whereabouts are you in the world? I can put you in touch with someone who can show you how to solve this in a very horse-friendly way, if you like... If you're anywhere near the midlands then you can even visit me. ;D
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by holi on Nov 25, 2011 9:14:30 GMT 1
I'm down in East Sussex Derek - I do know an EE instructor who is great but I feel with her she is not quite experienced enough to take this further. The pony's problem is compounded by the fact that she has got slipping hocks and gets locked sometimes which I think has pushed her forward and made her reluctant to stpe under and tranfer weight back. Combined with the sensitive skin around her mouth means that if she does fall forward on to the bit it actually hurts whereas in the past when training horses I have sometimes taken a stronger contact to support whilst putting them through transtions and lateral work to help move the weight back. Its a bit catch 22 and I can't work out how to address it. the previous owner just put a bitless on when they had problems
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 25, 2011 10:34:58 GMT 1
Hi holi,
Ah, I see. As I'm sure you'll appreciate, it's always difficult to see what's really going on just from reading the initial description... ;D
Yes, that's a nice interesting little puzzle for you ;D Sounds like she's more in the "doesn't know how to make herself comfortable" department and probably the "can't" make herself comfortable department, at the moment.
Just to check, what exactly happens with the hocks? Is it slipping hock or locking stifle? One or both legs? What sort of things seem to make it better/worse?
Derek
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Post by holi on Nov 25, 2011 10:54:47 GMT 1
Sorry its actually locking stifle - it only affects her sometimes but I think she finds it difficult at tims to step under (although she can jump well!!) I have done some inhand work with her to try and get her to cross over as she turns but I think she doesn't find it natural as she tends to move one leg then the other. I had started to get somewhere with her but it combined with moving her to some new grass which sent her OTT and things got a bit heated! I even contacted her previous owner who said she was very sensitive to good grazing - she lived before on poor grass and only was allowed a few days good grazing a week when jumping regularly to give her 'oomph'. Her heightened state plus finding it difficult led to a lot of resistence and worry (on both our parts as she bucked a lot!) I've calmed it all down with return to hacking on the buckle - just mainly walking otherwise the head goes up so I keep her on my seat as much as possible plus good old magnesium. If we do trot I try to hold her with my seat and ignore the head. Now worried that the spiral might start again if we start introducing the contact once more (although no flush of grass now at least!)
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Post by june on Nov 25, 2011 14:19:27 GMT 1
I've been doing some work with one of the new polo ponies recently to try to help her to understand how to make the bit comfortable using the stuff that Derek has been talking about. She has quite a severe locking stifle but is starting to find the work makes sense to her and is changing shape and developing top line in a very short space of time, despite the locking stifle. If Derek can recommend someone in your area it would be worth investigating it further.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 25, 2011 17:09:30 GMT 1
OK, I had a horse here not so long ago with similar issues.
As you probably know, locking stifle is due to relatively weak quadruceps muscles which are therefore unable to lift the ligament that releases the patella. Exercise that strengthens the quadruceps is usually very helpful. Long, powerful strides are the key so vets often recommend trotting or cantering powerfully up hills.
When the quadruceps are weak it is often accompanied by other postural problems and it can sometimes be difficult to know which came first.
It's impossible to say without really seeing your horse in action but from what you've described I'd be inclined to avoid lateral work for now and to focus on getting the quads strengthened up by working her in a very forward trot or canter with a long neck - more or less stretched out horizontally. Jumping, either free or on the lunge is also great for this.
To really solve this completely you eventually need to get her taking the reins forward with an extended neck in the trot rather than hollowing. If there isn't enough push from the hind legs then she will have to hollow out of necessity, though, so it may be that 'holding her with the seat' is actually a bit counter productive - though I appreciate you don't want to be zooming round on her back at a million miles an hour!
Because of that, if she is able to tolerate work on the lunge without aggravating the stifle problem, it can often be the best solution to begin with. If you are able to do shoulder in with her at present then I'd imagine she would cope with lunging OK so long as you do it well (which is a whole, 'nother topic altogether!)
There are some exercise you can use to teach a horse to extend her neck and take the contact forward. Unfortunately, East Sussex isn't near any of the people I had in mind but if you are interested to know more drop me a pm or an email and I'll see what we can work out. We are also running a clinic on therapeutic lunging here at the centre on 4/5 February 2012.
Hope that gives you some ideas...
Derek
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Post by holi on Nov 25, 2011 17:18:26 GMT 1
Thanks Derek - I do long line her and have been thinking of jumping so I'll start that. I've sat on her today in the school for a short time and at last she has calmed down again and was strteching forward (even lent on it at one point a little). I was also doing changes of direction, some minimal sideways movement and transitions with minimal contact. She got it in the end as she is a bright cookie.
Its funny you say about stretching out - when I bought her the vet noted her 'choppy stride' and since having her for the last few months she had started to stretch but then her back legs started catching the fronts. I've had some shiatsu on her and they are working on her shoulders as they say they are tight and I think there is some improvement there.
I'll pm you for the exercises - thanks
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Post by ellibell on Nov 26, 2011 11:58:10 GMT 1
Holi, I took my little Fell pony Mare Lucy to Dereks earlier this year as I was having confidence issues (me and her in me) and she also has locking stifle, and does all the above what Derek says to avoid contact (Long story why, but not totally all my fault lol) . By the end of the 3 days (apart from me being sooooooo unfit lol) the improvement in us both was IMO rather large. Now I have not been religiously following thru on the homework, but the little I have done in hand and some ridden (not ridden much) her stifle has locked much less, actually it has notlocked at all! She is starting to look for a contact (at times, which is better then never befoe we went to Dereks) and if I get my backside in gear once the bad winter weather has passed, we will both come on in leaps and bounds. I am a body worker so I can iron out a fair bit, but derek has helped me to understand even more what is going on when I ride and why I have a lack of confidence ( mostly from unfitness and Lu avoiding the contact so I am not in control at all) and just how blinking intelligent my ponies are at avoiding work!
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Post by holi on Nov 26, 2011 18:12:43 GMT 1
What great encouragement ellibell thank you. I've been talking to Derek and it seems I was doing some of what he suggests without realising it was positive but had been told by others I was wrong! He has certainly given me lots to think about and I shall take it forward. I'll let you know how it goes (I've even got the confidence issues too) and roll on the spring lol!
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Post by papershoes on Dec 2, 2011 21:46:05 GMT 1
What an interesting topic with great replies. I have found when my core strength is weak I have a tendency to fall forward onto the reins if I come unbalanced which is an added burden on my horse. I also find it difficult as my horse has quite a big trot, due to previously shaken confidence I have a bit of a mental block to just let him go into trot and stay in trot as I automatically assume he is going to run away with me! (silly me) But yes, I definitely agree with those that said lights hands have to be independent of the seat to achieve lightness
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