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Post by Kelly Marks on Nov 21, 2011 10:04:23 GMT 1
As above! May become an IH article for which contributions will be credited.
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Post by Dragonmaster on Nov 21, 2011 10:19:27 GMT 1
ooh... chicken and eggs comes to mind!
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Post by irishcob on Nov 21, 2011 11:13:55 GMT 1
I shall be watching this thread with much interest!!
Personally I don't think hands should even come in to it until you have FORWARDS. The horse needs to have impulsion and be in front of the leg, to come to your (obviously lovely and soft!) hand.
If we apply hand first, then inevitably he will be heavy and his mouth will become desensitised.
I'm probably getting a youngster soon who has only been under saddle for a few weeks. We will be aiming to go showing, and so a light mouth is imperative. So scarily any schooling faults he develops will be entirely my fault - eek!
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Post by mandal on Nov 21, 2011 11:22:22 GMT 1
ooh... chicken and eggs comes to mind! Me too and in fact I stopped myself posting first to say I believe the other way round may be more important. I also believe a stable, secure seat is also paramount for a light mouth as well as light hands. I'm always reminded of Mark Rashid's video Finding the try when I see threads like this. It was hugely important to my understanding the importance of seeing/looking for the horses smallest response and using that to build communication.
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Amanda Seater
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Post by Amanda Seater on Nov 21, 2011 11:59:10 GMT 1
Just keeping to the smaller picture of hands and not getting into everything else - which is of course connected ( unless you cut various body parts off to use then completely independantly!
Light hands can recreate a light mouth. I have just been doing exactly that this morning. Light ineffective hands don't work either so perhasp it is the effectiveness of the person the hand belong to! a bit like being effective in all he ground work too.
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Post by mandal on Nov 21, 2011 12:07:00 GMT 1
Light hands can recreate a light mouth. I have just been doing exactly that this morning. Light ineffective hands don't work either so perhasp it is the effectiveness of the person the hand belong to! a bit like being effective in all he ground work too. I agree and this is why I mention the Mark Rashid video. Hands need to communicate 'yes' to the horse imo other wise he wont learn what you're asking and tug of war aka 'force' may well develop. I take we are talking about the horses mouth here btw.
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Post by Zuzan on Nov 21, 2011 12:16:12 GMT 1
I think of the horses mouth as I would our hands.. they use their mouths in much the same way as we use our hands..
And so if a young horse is holding the bit or "leaning" I tend to think it like a young child holding rather tightly onto a grown ups hand.. it is there for support and to give confidence... that is not to say the adult should "grip" the child's hand tho' so developing a "feel" that is sensitive and can give confidence is how I understand this. When the "adult" grips the "child's" hand it is a sign the "adult" is worried or is fearful.
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Nov 21, 2011 12:37:23 GMT 1
The proof of this either way must be that either one can improve the 'lightness' mouth by better riding, or that one can create a heavy mouth. If skilful riding can make a light mouth out of a heavy one, or if certain riders can preserve lightness in a number of horses over a long period, the case is proved that light hands and good riding can make a light mouth. If on the other hand, a good rider riding a a horse which is a puller and has a heavy mouth cannot improve the mouth, then one must have a light mouth in order to have light hands.
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Post by KimT on Nov 21, 2011 14:18:56 GMT 1
I agree with Dragonmaster. Very chicken and egg.
A horse will not have a light mouth unless a rider with a light hand teaches them. How you achieve this could be a very long and interesting discussion.
Simlarly, I was taught the old fashioned 'kick to go, pull to stop' way and I have found the transition from that to having a light hand a very hard one and I still wouldnt say I'm 100% there. One of the things that helped was riding a horse with a light mouth and feeling the benefits. Sometimes you need a horse with a light mouth to teach you to have light hands.
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jinglejoys
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Post by jinglejoys on Nov 21, 2011 15:03:46 GMT 1
I'm doing my best not to use my hands
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 21, 2011 15:19:54 GMT 1
It depends... ;D
First we have to ask, what is a light hand and what is a light mouth?
Followers of the more Germanic approach to training consider that the mobility of the mouth is the result of achieving a posture of the whole horse that enables 'losgelassenheit' (untranslatable really, but most often the word used in English is 'relaxation') throughout his entire body.
If your horse happens to be close to this posture to begin with then it can be achieved very easily - whether the riders hands are involved or not and also whether they are light or not - hence the almost systematic use of side reins and a way of holding the reins that involves a relatively firm hand.
So, in this conception of the world, one could say that the light mouth achieved through gymnastic training 'enables' the rider to have light hands. While it sounds very attractive because it's relatively simple for the rider, the downside is that in practice it frequently doesn't work!
If the horse happens to be a long way from ideal posture, either because of conformation or perhaps previous poor riding and training, or has some other reason for not relaxing either mentally or physically, then either the rider will have to learn how to use his/her hands very skillfully to intervene and make the required corrections, or else they will need to get themselves a different horse... If we look at the old French approach, we see a very different methodology. According to the grand daddy of dressage and training (La Gueriniere), a light hand is "one which does not feel contact with the bars". He also says, however, that a 'good' hand has the ability to be light, gentle and also firm. The question is to know which is appropriate, when and why...
Baucher (another famous Frenchman) defines lightness as "a horse who gives his (or her) mouth at the half tension of a single rein". In this world, lightness is considered the means of training, rather than the end result. In other words, the light hand must be developed first in order to encourage the light mouth.
Baucher also goes on to agree with the idea of posture leading to lightness, however, by stating that "lightness is the proof of correct balance", before going on to explain how the hand can be used to achieve the correct balance in fraction of the time required to train a horse following the Germanic approach. The advantages to this method are that one can successfully train and ride horses that are a long way away from the ideal posture mentioned above because one can establish the lightness by direct intervention with the hand before subsequently adding forward motion little by little.
Of course, it goes without saying that there are proponents and critics on both sides. One thing that is clear, however, is that while the French method is the more effective with difficult or sensitive horses, it requires a higher level of skill and therefore a deeper level of commitment and study from the rider.
Derek
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Post by Kelly Marks on Nov 21, 2011 15:41:34 GMT 1
Thank you everyone so far and especially Derek for starting to add some meat to our chicken and eggs!
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Post by marsayy on Nov 21, 2011 17:25:45 GMT 1
I have heavy hands, changed to bit less and western with amazing results.
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Post by rj on Nov 21, 2011 18:00:13 GMT 1
I too struggle with 'light hands', & I too changed to bitless & sometimes brideless as well. But it hasn't helped me when I NEED to ride with contact, I still struggle But I am so trying. 'Light hands' doesn't mean long reins. I know a lot about what it isn't and how it isn't achieved. Now all I have to do is found out how to achieve it...........
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Nov 21, 2011 18:41:46 GMT 1
rj said:
Did you mean to say loose reins rather than long reins, rj? Light hands should frequently mean long reins but loose reins is another matter altogether. If you've got these mixed up then that may well be the root of your problems when riding with contact. Many of the problems that come with the modern German/competition method result from shortening of the reins which only constricts the neck.
'Lightness', at least according to La Gueriniere's definitions, means that the horse tightens the reins by opening his poll slightly and seeking to lengthen his neck while at the same time 'giving' his mouth by a soft swallowing action which mobilises the tongue. This can and must be achieved on long reins. In fact, one of the most common problems in horses today is the failure to open the poll in order to preserve the contact with the rider when the rider allows the reins to lengthen.
Loose reins, on the other hand, are just that - loose reins. If it's because the rider isn't taking contact then it's purely a fault of the rider but if it's because the horse won't allow the rider to take or keep contact then it's a fault in the horse's training (which may, however, have been caused by the rider in the first place).
Whether the appropriate contact is light, gentle or firm in any given moment depends on the horse's horizontal balance. The more the balance is to the forehand, the firmer will be the contact while the more the balance is to the haunches, the lighter will be the contact required by the horse. This is why contact will always be relatively firmer the faster the horse goes.
La Gueriniere's 'descent de main' (lowering of the hands - in order to lighten the contact) is an action that tests whether the horse stays balanced towards his haunches after having been put there - by an elevation of the neck via an upward action of the hands, if you're doing it the French way, or by an elevation of the neck via driving the horse forward against fixed hands, if you're doing it the German way.
Baucher's ideal is that the horse should never be on the forehand at any stage, so if following his work the contact should be much lighter at all times - but only if and because the horse is always balanced toward his haunches.
'Lightness' should not be - but very frequently is - confused with loose reins. They are not the same thing at all!
Derek
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