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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 15:23:21 GMT 1
I was hijacking the other thread so here we go! This was my post: I agree wholeheartedly with SarahW. I actually find that when handling my horse the very best and most useful tip I ever picked up came from Kelly on the 5 day course - stop making any noise!
Ultimately verbal communication is a human concept - very rarely used by horses, and I think anthropomorphism is at it's worst when chattering to horses when training them.
Any noise you make is either a substitute for another cue (be it body language or pressure) or entirely superfluous. I've seen it in myself and many others, the situation where the human makes noises the horse doesn't understand and all that happens is the talking frustrates the human. Often the human thinks the horse is causing their frustration but I actually think it's their own chatter. When I stopped making any kind of noise I instantly found myself calmer, and considering far more carefully how I could effectively communicate with the horse. Every now and then I fall back into chatting and have to remind myself.And responses: But it is not what you are saying, it is all down to tone and innotation - we know they don't understand words but talking can be calming, motivating and supportive of body language and physical signals. . Only if you have taught the horse those cues first. What about in ridden work? I hate it when people do not talk to their hoses when riding, it is a vital extra tool when faced with awkward situations or just a bit of praise when things are going right. Again, only if the horse has been taught the specific cues. No offence intended but I'd hate to see you ride Talin because you're already assuming he'd respond to aids he wouldn't understand. An example is "steady", try that on Talin and you'll get no response whatsoever, all you'll do is confuse him, yet I'd say about 90% of riders I know use it in the blind assumption that it will work, and they probably all have different expectations of what the horse should do in response. I think you're missing my point somewhat, which is that voice aids if used should be very precise and specific. Mostly they aren't, I've lost count of the times I've seen people say "up" to get a horse's foot up then just keep repeating it endlessly when the horse doesn't respond. Likewise with "back", "over" etc, I've yet to find a horse who responds to those voice aids with no physical back up, yet they'll all respond to the physical aid without the voice (even if it is the lightest of touches), what does that tell you?
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Post by jennyb on Dec 9, 2011 15:30:19 GMT 1
Good point Michelle. I do use voice aids, but I am aware that mine are specific to my horse. I always take care to ask someone else how they cue their horse to do things! Had an interesting demonstration of this in my last Roland Tong lesson, when we were training piaffe half steps in hand. Roland uses a "Brrrrr!" to cue a halt, whereas Gazdag knows that as a giddy up signal! I had to interject and say we use either "HO!" or a whistle for a halt. Gazdag knew the body language was saying stop, but in his mind the voice was saying go, he was very confused, lol!
Re your last point, they do respond to the voice with no physical signal if it is trained enough. Case in point this week, when Gazdag bucked at me in excitement about getting his dinner. He was sent away very strongly and scolded, I don't tolerate bolsiness, and when he was walking towards me for his bucket afterwards I said "HO!!" very sternly, and he screeched to a halt. He does know a few words well enough to respond to them on their own, but they have been trained consistently and with relevant back up from physical cues initially, and repeated again and again and again over three and a half years, so it's not surprising that he knows a few "off by heart"!
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jinglejoys
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Post by jinglejoys on Dec 9, 2011 15:34:37 GMT 1
Sometimes I have to remember to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open That's why I like to work to music. When Blue and I get more advanced and I'm working her from Z5 I might start using voice commands with her for driving but as I drive her without blinkers I probably won't need to I do yak too much when riding though ;D
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Post by jennyb on Dec 9, 2011 15:42:28 GMT 1
If I am training Gazdag (riding or groundwork) I mainly shut up, apart from obvious voice commands when lunging etc. I do natter at other times though...
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Post by ladyndibs on Dec 9, 2011 15:57:32 GMT 1
I am dreadful as I know I talk too much but if Lady can't see me and I am picking her rear feet and say down she will put her foot down however if I just let go she doesn't put it down it drops down, before everyone shoots me down I know it's a bad habit and I'm trying to stop the inane chatter but I do find that reassuring her she is good and every thing is ok seems to help but maybe it helps me more than her, but having very little confidence is it better to have a natter and stay calm or focus on not talking which leaves me tense?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 16:12:41 GMT 1
I think talking to keep yourself calm is totally different to using voice commands, when you use your voice to communicate with the horse there is presumably some expectation he/ she will respond. I should clarify I think Kelly's point on the 5 day course was that she wanted us to stop chattering/ making random noises and really concentrate on the silent communication (exactly as you say JJ - keeping our mouths shut and eyes open ), then if we did decide to reintroduce voice aids we could consider them carefully rather than falling into automatic chatter. For example, Kelly asked me direct when I clucked at a horse I was leading "what did that cluck mean?" and I couldn't really tell her, in my mind it was some form of encouragement but who only knows what the horse thought it meant! ;D
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Post by mags on Dec 9, 2011 16:21:58 GMT 1
I'm talking too much on the lunge/longline I've been trying very hard to stop the habit as part of my "anti-napping" strategy: ask once, reinforce if necessary and stop nagging immediately when the horse reacts. Unfortunately, I don't always shut up when I should. I'm better with groundwork (more precise with my cues), and don't really use voice while riding, except to praise together with a scratch on the withers. I disagree somewhat with michellep's statement : It took my gelding a while to learn to step sideways over a pole. I used the cue "over" with this particular movement. When I first started this exercise ridden, he was clearly confused about what I wanted when I asked him to step sideways, but not do a leg yield, turn on forehand etc. Using the cue "over" was like flipping a switch, and he made the connection very quickly. I do think that a voice cue in conjunction with other aids can help the horse make the right decision when it is a bit unclear about what you want from him.
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Post by Yann on Dec 9, 2011 16:22:39 GMT 1
I think horses are perfectly capable of learning verbal cues, both ridden and on the ground, but they do tend to be quite context sensitive. How many people have turned to a hacking partner and said 'shall we trot' and found themselves already under way before they've finished the question?
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Post by jennyb on Dec 9, 2011 16:24:46 GMT 1
ROFL Yann! Precisely why me and my friend use "t-word" or "c-word" when we're out hacking!
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Post by dalesfan on Dec 9, 2011 16:33:31 GMT 1
Ditto! My old horse was very clued in to those words so I had to be extremely careful when I used them. With the 2 horses I have now, I'm working on using my voice a lot less ( although I've had a couple of western lessons and the use of the voice as a cue has been encouraged), and if I do use a verbal cue I have to be consistent ( which is work in progress....) Interestingly, I've found that since I've made a conscious effort to cut down the use of the voice as much as possible, I've felt much calmer around my horses .
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Post by marychick on Dec 9, 2011 16:38:45 GMT 1
I think voice commands can be a brilliant tool because as people I think we are sometimes better at controlling our voices than anything else, but we mustn't forget that horses primarily use body langauge as a form of communication and, as you guys have already mentioned, any voice commands really are conditioned responses. With this in mind I often find its easier to train horses to a noise (eg kissing noise for canter) as this is simpler and easier to produce in the same tone than a word can be. But then you have to be careful not to use it for any other circumstances and be clear what it means.
In terms of using voice commands for praise I tend to prefer a good scratch on the neck or just dismounting where possible because I think my horse views this as much more of a reward.
I do get a bit frustrated when I see people just expecting their horse to speak English, for example, shouting at their horse to "stand" but never pairing it with any sort of correction. As far as that horse is concerned "stand" now means move your feet alot?!
Mary
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Post by taklishim on Dec 9, 2011 17:09:14 GMT 1
But it is not what you are saying, it is all down to tone and innotation - we know they don't understand words but talking can be calming, motivating and supportive of body language and physical signals. .
Only if you have taught the horse those cues first.
Yesterday at 8:36pm, specialized wrote:
What about in ridden work? I hate it when people do not talk to their hoses when riding, it is a vital extra tool when faced with awkward situations or just a bit of praise when things are going right.
well I can't speak for specialized but I thought he was meaning talking to the horse when riding it the same as I do. For example on this morning's ride I met a very large tractor, bale on the front loader and trailor on the back on a relatively narrow road. The horse is relatively young and inexperienced. We stopped at the side whilst it came past.. I stroked his neck, told him in a calming and soothing voice that he was the most clever chap to cope with that, in fact I didn't know how he could be so brilliant and a few other compliments. He stood perfectly and calmly. I could have sat their and not spoken I suppose but what I did kept him happy and gave him confidence for the next tractor we meet.
We got to a gate, I bent to undo the catch and a horse trotted by. Mine immediately changed his focus from me to the other horse. I growled "manners" at him and he came back to me.
He was not very keen to go past a slightly difficult place (which he has been trained to go past several times) I growled something like "get a move on". That is what I think we are talking about.
As for voice commands then sometimes I ride using normal aids, sometimes I use purely voice aids and sometimes both. Obviously when the horse was led around the roads as a youngster prior to riding he had exactly the same aids ie "ho"," ho ho", back, stand, wait and "push push" or whatever else.
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Post by cbc on Dec 9, 2011 17:28:58 GMT 1
I suppose one of the pitfalls of verbal communication being a major form for humans is the wide range of ways we use it. So the chat that may help the horse interpret the wishes of his/her handler by its tone in certain circumstances may be a bane when the human wishes to train specific cues. As michellp points out, verbal cues can cause confusion for different hanlers too. One of the ways talking can be "useful" in an indirect way for the horse is if the rider talks/sings if they are not good at controlling their breathing. If you are prone to holding your breath when you feel tense, talking or singing can break that cycle. Not that this is relevant to training, sorry it is another offshoot of its own If you are training you need to avoid this paticular scenario.
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sazjayp
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Post by sazjayp on Dec 9, 2011 18:12:31 GMT 1
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Post by mags on Dec 9, 2011 18:24:30 GMT 1
Just slightly OT... I vividly remember watching group riding lessons in a very old-fashioned stable when I was young. The group would ride in single file only. For canter, everybody who wasn't up to cantering yet would be asked to stand on the centre line in the beginners lessons, while the rest of the group would canter on the track. The instructor in an advanced lesson (where everybody was supposed to canter) stood in the middle, shouting: "Abteilung....[German: group, prepare for a change...] Galopp! [canter!]". And half the horses turned in towards the middle and lined up on the centre line! Hilarious! ;D I'm quite sure they did that on voice command, despite the physical aids of the riders telling them to stay on the track and canter.
I know some people claim that without some subtle postural clue, you can't really train a horse to learn voice commands. But I think it's pretty clear that with enough repetition, they will learn to follow just a voice command, even when other conflicting aids are given.
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