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Post by shan on Dec 14, 2011 22:41:08 GMT 1
Really what quite a few of us mean then, is that alot of phrases & vocal commands are actually just a sharper focus for us humans as we're using our body language.
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Post by mandal on Dec 14, 2011 23:04:14 GMT 1
Since experiencing this 'different level' (for the want of a better phrase) I have pretty much given up chatting to my horses and giving voice commands as I find it just hinders my progress and hazes my concentration...thats just me though! I understand everyone works differently Not that I'm at this level (lol) but you have reminded me of why I don't chat when doing stuff, it stops me focusing and reading my horses. Since coming across IH I have been honing my body language and learnt to really watch my horses responses closely and this has helped my tune myself into them. Most of the time at home mine are loose and we just go about our daily life in a quiet harmony, most of the time, and things just flow. Very basic btw I've a long way to go but my life is so much easier and nicer since learning and practicing these skills. We are all different... I have 'love ins' when I chat softly usually when spending one to one time just stroking, scratching, looking and loving. This is mostly for me but they don't seem to mind and will wander off if they've had enough. ;D
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Post by marychick on Dec 14, 2011 23:24:17 GMT 1
This thread is brilliant Michelle, I've now got about 10 different ideas of what I want to do for my psychology project! Hehe. I was already looking into the body signals we don't know we're doing for a potential project because I vaguely remember one of my old lecturers at uni talking about a study on mirror neurons and motor planning where participants were shown an orange and neurones in their brain began firing as they were already planning the action for grasping the orange and in turn their are slight muscular movements that the participants made in conjunction with this planning. Before anyone tells me off: this is just from a memory of a lecture a few years ago so I may have missed something but from experience horses definitely pick up on cues that we don't notice as people- seen as horses primarily use body language for communication it makes perfect sense that they would do this. As people we are generally not in control of a lot of our movements so I think a lot of the time when we may believe the horse has responded to our voice they are in fact responding to our body! Going to stop rambling on about rubbish and find that study now!
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Post by spanisheyes on Dec 15, 2011 11:04:22 GMT 1
I agree marychick it is a fascinating thread and has really made me think. My boy (the one who I believe understands a lot of voice commands ) is extremely sensitive to body language as well. He has issues around food due to previous bad treatment and after I feed him if I go into his stable to skip him out I am very careful not to look at him. If I do he perceives it as pressure and becomes agitated, thats just my eyes moving so obviously he is finely tuned to very subtle body language. This is always referred to by Monty doing join up and if I loose school him just moving my eyes to different parts of his body accelerates or decelerates him (only if hes listening and not full of high jinx). But Monty always chats to the horses he works with at demos. I know a lot of the time he is talking to the audience so the patter is part of the 'show'. Do the IHRAs know what Monty does at home, with no one else there? Does he work in silence or still chat to the horses? Im famililar with Clever Hans and also Pavlovs dogs, both are covered in any basic psychology course. Thinking about the Pavlovian response, horses do that too, mine know that when I hit my stirring spoon on the side of the feed bowl, feeds are mixed and will be served, so they neigh and get excited. Similarly when I walk up to their field with the headcollar (which makes a unique jingle noise) they whinny and run to the gate. They dont see me in either scenario so they are reacting to a noise, clicker training relies on this. Isnt reacting to our voice just an extension of this? I would be really interested to know if my horses do understand word commands or if they are responding to subtle signals like my eyes moving and my breath.
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Post by SarahW on Dec 15, 2011 11:14:12 GMT 1
I thought one of the really fascinating things about the War Horse play is how the puppeteer actors said that they had to give up listening for the words, lines and verbal cues because they couldn't hear them clearly under all of that horse (!) so instead they now listen for and react to the energy around them and it made for a much more natural movement in the horse.
I'd be very happy for any of these theories to be tested in a project - if only a horse could say, of course I understand what you are saying, you muppet! Then we would know. I'm really fascinated to know why we can become heartbroken when we think that our horse doesn't understand words - to me it's more of a compliment that a horse understands my pidgeon (sp?) body language and energy and tries it's little best to co-operate with me. I reckon they stand around thinking, when will they ever learn?!
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Post by mandal on Dec 15, 2011 11:21:09 GMT 1
That's really interesting about the War Horse puppeteers Sarah. I think Dr Doolittle has a lot to answer for.
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Post by spiderwoman1 on Dec 15, 2011 19:07:43 GMT 1
When i did my 5 day course i remember being given a very flighty horse for a join up (Sarah) I could do nothing but turn on the spot and control my breathing to lower her energy.
When her energy was low and we was ready to join up i remember thinking in my head when she reaches the next panel of teh round pen i will ask her to come it was like she read my thoughts as she instantly turned towards me as i said it in my head!
My body language must have been so subtle but it was enough for her to understand what i was saying.
It certainly made me think about what signals i give off without speaking but just thinking. I am also glad it was my filmed join up.
If you have done any NLP courses body language is something we tend to ignore as humans but it really speaks a thousand words.
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