Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2010 0:10:32 GMT 1
When Ian described it on the course I was on I seem to remember the wisdom was that it works and doesn't cause them any distress so why not use it!
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Post by mandal on Dec 29, 2010 0:28:32 GMT 1
When Ian described it on the course I was on I seem to remember the wisdom was that it works and doesn't cause them any distress so why not use it! This is in my realm of... that's ok IF the reason for the horse kicking the door isn't down to management or other avoidable distress. The same as the water squirting device linked earlier. I think these sort of 'problems' should always be looked at from the eyes of the horse first rather than any inconvenience or annoyance a behaviour causes humans. The focus is then solely on stopping a behaviour not finding out why it arose in the first place. Tbh, I personally would fling the doors open like Jen1 but I realize that isn't what everyone wants to do.
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Post by bertie666 on Dec 29, 2010 0:35:17 GMT 1
Turn him out 27/7..... ;D
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Post by jen1 on Dec 29, 2010 0:46:08 GMT 1
When Ian described it on the course I was on I seem to remember the wisdom was that it works and doesn't cause them any distress so why not use it! This is in my realm of... that's ok IF the reason for the horse kicking the door isn't down to management or other avoidable distress. The same as the water squirting device linked earlier. I think these sort of 'problems' should always be looked at from the eyes of the horse first rather than any inconvenience or annoyance a behaviour causes humans. The focus is then solely on stopping a behaviour not finding out why it arose in the first place. Tbh, I personally would fling the doors open like Jen1 but I realize that isn't what everyone wants to do. see i knew you would get what im saying ,id just like to know more about the thinking of stopping it, if a horse was box walking and we tied it up we would all be up in arms, so why stop a horse from kicking the door why not start at the begining and work out the why questions?
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Post by mandal on Dec 29, 2010 0:53:23 GMT 1
;D I get you jen1. ;D Actually that horse in the link has the beginnings of box walking too by the look of it.
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Post by jill on Dec 29, 2010 9:22:17 GMT 1
But quite often it is a learned behaviour that has been reinforced - by someone arriving with a feed, or giving attention etc., and will continue in hope of further reinforcement, unlike box walking which is a stress response. It is usually superstitious learning (i.e. it has resulted in a reward once and the horse connects the noise/action with the reward. If only we could translate that to things we WANT them to learn!) and not related to any underlying problem IME.
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Post by mandal on Dec 29, 2010 11:19:28 GMT 1
But quite often it is a learned behaviour that has been reinforced - by someone arriving with a feed, or giving attention etc., and will continue in hope of further reinforcement, unlike box walking which is a stress response. Oh yes Jill I agree from my fairly limited understanding these behaviours often become fixed due to reward and intermittent reward is very powerful. Taking the horse in the link as an example... door kicking is followed by a turn around the box. How do we decide which may be stress/frustration and which is purely an inadvertantly rewarded behaviour? Box walking isn't so clearly rewarded by humans but surely the horse gets some relief by activity and a human may have come just at the right moment to let him out but not observed the previous turns around the box. My point is that we should look more deeply into our management and the effects on individual horses. I often read people say... my horse can't cope with being stabled. Stabling is one of my 'pet subjects' and something I personally feel strongly about when horses appear to be objecting. Sorry op to go on with stuff that isn't helpful.
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joflo
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Post by joflo on Dec 29, 2010 11:26:09 GMT 1
If a horse kicks a door 'at me' then I always ignore it or promptly turn round and walk off. Flo does it occasionally if I'm not quick enough with her feed or letting her out but it's getting less frequent now she's realising it gets her nowhere.
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Post by donnalex on Dec 29, 2010 11:28:41 GMT 1
It is not always possible to just turn them out. We have to work with what we have available to us. I would either put up a set of rattly tins and bottles that shock him into stopping or if you think he may like that even more then try making a bar to go accross the corner about a foot inside the door with either a piece of carpet swinging from it or a piece of rubber so that it just swings about a bit. Like the skirt on a partition in a wagon. Whatever is easiest for you to set up. The habit needs stopping before he gets big knees or other injuries.
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Post by mandal on Dec 29, 2010 11:44:52 GMT 1
I know it's not always possible to just turn them out Donnalex and imo it is desirable that a horse feels comfortable in a stable in case he has to be in one at some point. Joflo has described a common scenario and one which imo she dealt with correctly and the frustration in the horse wanting to be let out immediately is not what I was thinking of? Yes this can escalate into constant door knocking and should be 'nipped in the bud'. That to me is a clear cut observation of what is going on. The problem arises with horses that kick doors for hours on end and if they display other stress related behaviours too I think we should look more deeply than just stopping the behaviour. Like many things it does of course depend but I worry when a behaviour is treated in the same way for all horses rather than looking at the behaviour in that individual horse. Not saying that anyone is saying that btw.
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Post by jill on Dec 29, 2010 12:00:39 GMT 1
One way to find out whether it is stress (or boredom) or learned behaviour is to hide (or even better hire a CCTV system) and see whether it happens when no-one is around. If it does, no reward is anticipated except possibly the noise, and it is more likely a stable toy or more turn out will help. Teaching tolerance to stabling is always well worth while IMO - start with a very short period and a feed and build very very gradually so that they learn to cope. Coping strategies are something every horses should be encouraged to learn, poor Cassidy had none when he arrived but even at 20 he has been able to learn to stand in a stable for a fairly long time (so long as he can see other horses).
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Post by mandal on Dec 29, 2010 12:13:13 GMT 1
I think CCTV is a great idea Jill. I think we would all learn so much from the footage.
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Post by ghostrider on Dec 29, 2010 13:12:09 GMT 1
Jill said:
One way to find out whether it is stress (or boredom) or learned behaviour is to hide (or even better hire a CCTV system) and see whether it happens when no-one is around. If it does, no reward is anticipated except possibly the noise, and it is more likely a stable toy or more turn out will help.
But this horse is kicking the door at night, to the point where she broke the door ... that's not just kicking for attention - unless the op is going down to check on her during the night when she can hear her kicking. I can only agree with the people who say that the management needs consideration - stabling horses and then suppressing their objections with aversive tactics seems a bit questionable to me. I can fully appreciate the need to teach horses to be relaxed in their stables - but imo if the horse is not relaxed, changes/improvements need to be made without causing the horse anymore frustration or unhappiness.
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Amanda Seater
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Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 29, 2010 13:21:14 GMT 1
From the original mesage it sounds like the youngster is kicking through the night as she is waking them up in the night. I would look at the whole management system and wonder why the horse is kicking in the first place. rather than just stoping it by using a device. It could well be that she likes the sound but it could be something else. If it is something else triggering the kicking as it doesn't sound liek a reward situation I would be concerned that just stoping the kicking may create another "vice"style behaviour. Is she able to see another horse? would she benefit being able to see or touch another over a partition? how long is she in for? does she have to be in at all?
I would worry that she is not eating - does she run out of hay in the night?
Lots of questions.
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Post by jaxnbreeze on Dec 29, 2010 14:01:27 GMT 1
Has she finished her hay and impatient for her breakfast?
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