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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Jan 7, 2011 11:01:38 GMT 1
I know there was a massive thread a week or so ago but I am not feeling well and haven't got the inclination to read it all but my question is:
If when using +R the trainer would prefer not to use -R. How can this be achieved? For example, when long lining in a dually and you would want the horse o halt, you would have to apply the pressure in order for the horse to offer the behavior (thus using -R), releasing the pressure (+R), clicking then treating (+R). Is my understanding correct?
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Post by jen1 on Jan 7, 2011 11:23:30 GMT 1
talk to becky, she was clicker training champ for dogs at an early age, she uses it with her training methods , not a religious clicker trainer, but i think she has it spot on for usuing as an everyday thing,
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Post by ghostrider on Jan 7, 2011 11:31:09 GMT 1
I know there was a massive thread a week or so ago but I am not feeling well and haven't got the inclination to read it all but my question is: If when using +R the trainer would prefer not to use -R. How can this be achieved? For example, when long lining in a dually and you would want the horse o halt, you would have to apply the pressure in order for the horse to offer the behavior (thus using -R), releasing the pressure (+R), clicking then treating (+R). Is my understanding correct? close but not quite right long reining in the way you describe has to involve -R, yes. application and removalof pressure is negative reinforcement - but to be technically correct the removal of pressure is relief not reward. The 'click' marks the desired behaviour - in this instance the halt - and the treat is positive reinforcement.
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Post by mandal on Jan 7, 2011 14:16:10 GMT 1
May I suggest that if you wish to train without using -R you would have to go back to basics and train with what is called free shaping Bronte and Nancy. I'm sure ghostrider will correct me if that is incorrect.
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Post by Yann on Jan 7, 2011 14:31:22 GMT 1
That's the easiest way to do it. But you could also click and treat for halt with the horse following you using mostly body language and very little pressure at all and then associate that with a verbal cue which you could then use in other situations.
The free shaping thing would be to have a loose horse wandering about and then click for halt when it happened, which could be quite tricky and frustrating for both of you unless you really knew what you were doing.
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Jan 7, 2011 15:26:15 GMT 1
I had intended to free shape first, but, surely, in order for me to extend the CT into her long lining & ridden work I would have to use -R. This is is where I am finding it confusing I think, because, essentially, you want the horse light and responsive, and understanding what you are asking them, hence using +R for an offer of a behavior, but, I don't wish to ride for the rest of my life with a clicker, thus, leg aids & pressure would come in to it?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2011 15:59:10 GMT 1
I think if you wish to ride a horse using 'normal' aids then you have to use negative reinforcement. Every time you put your leg on, then remove it when the horse moves forwards, that is negative reinforcement.
Technically your voice might also be classed as negative reinforcement - if you say 'walk on' and the horse doesn't, then presumably you will try again, and if the horse does walk on, then you'll stop saying it? That's the same thing.
The definition of negative reinforcement is to take something away to increase a behaviour. What you take away doesn't have to be a bad thing.
MTA: You can use negative reinforcement in a very light way, don't be fooled into thinking the word 'negative' means bad in this way.
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Jan 7, 2011 16:16:28 GMT 1
Thats my point Michelle, you have to combine -R with +R when training horses. I was reading something last night on CT that said they don't like to combine the two, I couldn't see how it was possible??
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Post by mandal on Jan 7, 2011 16:20:34 GMT 1
I was/am stuck on this point Bronte and Nancy. To fully free shape (use no -R) you have to slowly build up the componants of, for example, long reining so that your requests are cues that have been learned through free shaping. So as Yann says it's pretty complicated and you need to learn and practice to build up to complex behaviours. Mta... To avoid confusion.
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Jan 7, 2011 16:41:23 GMT 1
Thanks Mandal, at least I am not on my own with this . So, in theory, and if you are very skilled, you could do anything with a horse from simply back up to show jumping to quite complex dressage moves without using -R?? Its very complicated. How would you stimulate a response without using stimulus? Surely a horse would learn by showing (using -R) the horse what you are asking. For something as simple as leading, the horse will only learn to stop when you stop. by us showing him by applying pressure, whether that be by pressure from the halter or standing in front of him and using strong body language to stop him, also would body language not be seen a -R also, as it is still pressure. Obviously I have lots to learn and I will be getting an expert in, but, I would like to start playing with the girls to get theirs and my brain ticking
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Post by Yann on Jan 7, 2011 18:04:21 GMT 1
In theory, but the horse would probably have died of old age by the time you were ready to do anything half useful on it Most people use at least some -R whatever they say. From what I've seen those who really try hard to avoid using it at all don't ride or do much else with their horses. That's their choice of course.
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Post by ghostrider on Jan 7, 2011 18:04:51 GMT 1
lol Mandal - you've even lost me on the cue/stimulus thing - but will have to leave it for another time as am just getting ready to leave to drive to t'other end of country (Wales) and beyond for a course I'm running tomorrow ... I think the amount of confusion expressed in this thread alone suggests the Listening Post is crying out for a clear, straightforward article on clicker training - people are obviously interested but getting very muddled up, and inevitably any thread on here dissolves into an indepth discussion on philosophy/ethics pros and cons and so on - not getting at you Mandal, at all, I LOVE those discussions - but they clearly confuse people who then can't be bothered to wade through the intricacies to find out the basics, which is what they need to begin. People are obviously interested in CT and just need to grasp the basics in a clear, straightforward way. We are not talking rocket science here, the basics of learning theory, which is what one needs to know to start, are just that ... the absolute basics - infact learning theory is taught at GCSE and A Level (or at least it was when I was a psychology teacher - several years ago admittedly) - all be that we are then applying it practically which is where it gets a tad more complicted - but really it is not so difficult - it just needs clarity. Now that Kelly has brought up the complications of using a dually and the potential problems of heavy negative reinforcement being combined with the clicker I really think something needs to be written to let people at least grasp the basics, the nuts and bolts and some of the things to try to avoid. Yes, we are always going to have 'discussions' about what 'heavy negative reinforcement' actually is - but it doesn't preclude an article which at least covers the basics in an understandable way. mta - good grief - how many times have I used 'basics' in this post!! ;D
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Post by mandal on Jan 7, 2011 18:13:37 GMT 1
lol Mandal - you've even lost me on the cue/stimulus thing - Doh! Oh NO! I thought I'd cracked it at last! I'll try and keep quiet. ;D Not had much luck so far though so if I post on a CT thread eveyone tell me to shut up! Apologies Bronte and Nancy.
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Jan 7, 2011 18:59:31 GMT 1
there is no need to apologise Mandal, we are all on here to learn, and its good that we are all on here to learn for the good of the horse.
I have to say -R has worked wonders for my two (ie the dually). It really taught them to respect pressure and I am happy to say I can now use it with the minimalist of pressure. Bronte now walks confidently by by side with her head lowered.
My reasons for getting interested in CT is because Nancy has such bad association with work I think it best to use as much +R with her to make her a safe & happy horse.
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Post by Yann on Jan 7, 2011 21:02:37 GMT 1
My experience is that it's very good for all those things
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