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Post by cbc on Jan 5, 2011 8:51:17 GMT 1
JJ I certainly didnt read it as you being the novice poster, you are a contributor who shows the good results of the parelli system.
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Tuppence
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Post by Tuppence on Jan 5, 2011 9:34:30 GMT 1
Watched the video for the umpteenth time, and at 17 secs noticed, for the first time, LP whacking the horse across the backside with the rope. Not gently.
I am speechless at the BHS endorsing them after all that has happened.
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Tuppence
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Post by Tuppence on Jan 5, 2011 9:46:54 GMT 1
Neither horse is scared, in fact the opposite in both cases. Linda is trying to get the horse to respect her space and Pat is trying to help a horse get over a severe phobia whilst ensuring his own personal safety.Neither case is abuse - perhaps not what people expect of 'natural horsemanship' as people incorrectly expect this to be all fluffy bunny stuff and it isn't. Horses are not naturally all sweetness and light to each other. Sometimes 'leadership' requires dealing with issues head-on and requires a level of energy that matches the horses behaviour as a herd leader would. Surely this is better than avoiding issues until they get out of hand and the horses become more and more dangerous - I fear this is one of the main reason so many are destroyed and branded as being untrainable. From what I have read on this and other forums Heather is pretty demonstrative of her dislike of the method and therefore the people that practise them. I am sorry to be so blunt, but you are totally delusional! There are countless people both on here and elsewhere who could have dealt with either of those horses without resorting to violence at any level. I have yet to see a 'herd leader' tie up a horses leg so it can get it at a disadvantage to further abuse it. Barney and Catwalk were both severely traumatised and you don't need to be a fluffy bunny to make that observatio0n.
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Post by BJMM on Jan 5, 2011 10:01:03 GMT 1
Malcsmum, even if 'neither horse was frightened' (Barney looked pretty scared to me!!) how can you justify the 'good clunk' (Linda's words, not mine) round the head with a heavy metal clip??? How can you justify a horse (Catwalk) being tied down? If Catwalk's behaviour was deemed dangerous and hazardous to Pat's welfare then he should have removed the horse from the public arena, which was probably stressing him out even more, and worked with him in a quiet manner until he happily accepted the bridle. Parelli 'followers' actually walked out of that demo and protested their disgust to the organisers. I am not anti-Parelli as a system, I have three friends who use their methods and their horses are calm, happy and working well. Linda and Pat should practice the Love, Language and Leadership that they espouse. Whilst they are seen to abuse horses in this manner, it is wrong of the BHS to be seen to promote them. Good on you, Heather, for speaking up. I'm right behind you!
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Post by K8 on Jan 5, 2011 10:14:35 GMT 1
Linda and Pat should practice the Love, Language and Leadership that they espouse. Exactly Blazesmum, I think parelli seems to be....' Do as I say, Not as I do.' Heather, You know my opinion on Parelli, and I am too, am right behind you!!!
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Post by holi on Jan 5, 2011 11:03:00 GMT 1
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Amanda Seater
Grand Prix Poster
Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
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Post by Amanda Seater on Jan 5, 2011 11:34:52 GMT 1
I agree that those actions on Barney and Catwalk are abuse and theere is no call for that sort of treatment of any horse. I didn't realise that they had endorsed this as good and not a c*8k up or misjudgement of some sort
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Bay Mare
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Post by Bay Mare on Jan 5, 2011 12:52:18 GMT 1
I didn't realise that they had endorsed this as good and not a c*8k up or misjudgement of some sort I'll have to find the interview but, essentially, Pat's regret was that he had used 'advanced' techniques in front of a non-Parelli audience who wouldn't understand what he was doing His implication was that if you don't follow the Parelli levels then you simply don't understand. If that is an advanced technique then I'm sorry but they need to be brought to account by the welfare associations. As for Barney and Catwalk they both looked confused and worried at the very least. To state that Catwalk was an extremely dominant stallion (Pat's assertion) shows that they have absolutely no understanding of horses at all despite their 'Horsenality' charts. I actually think that he was an angel to put up with the treatment that he endured, my mare wouldn't have put with half of what he did!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2011 13:25:42 GMT 1
malcsmum wrote: Neither case is abuse - perhaps not what people expect of 'natural horsemanship' as people incorrectly expect this to be all fluffy bunny stuff and it isn't.
I know this all too well, my horse has given me concussion twice, but that doesn't mean I'm going to return the favour.
I'm not against Parelli methods, I know people who use them with great success and great kindness, but IMO anyone who thinks Pat's methods with Catwalk are the best way to deal with a bridle phobic horse need to go for a lesson with Sarah Weston RA.
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Bay Mare
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Post by Bay Mare on Jan 5, 2011 13:39:13 GMT 1
I agree that those actions on Barney and Catwalk are abuse and theere is no call for that sort of treatment of any horse. I didn't realise that they had endorsed this as good and not a c*8k up or misjudgement of some sort I can't find the interview (it was either on the Your Horse website or the magazine) but here's my summary on EE (towards the bottom of the page): www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php/topic,40641.105.html
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Post by heather on Jan 5, 2011 14:34:49 GMT 1
malcsmum wrote: Neither case is abuse - perhaps not what people expect of 'natural horsemanship' as people incorrectly expect this to be all fluffy bunny stuff and it isn't. I know this all too well, my horse has given me concussion twice, but that doesn't mean I'm going to return the favour. I'm not against Parelli methods, I know people who use them with great success and great kindness, but IMO anyone who thinks Pat's methods with Catwalk are the best way to deal with a bridle phobic horse need to go for a lesson with Sarah Weston RA. Hear, hear, Michelle!! Heather
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Post by lucylucylou on Jan 5, 2011 14:51:56 GMT 1
What I can't understand is that if they (they being P's) didn't handle these horses well, why on earth was that video of Barney ever released onto you tube?
And why did they not make an assessment of Catwalk before such a public display?
I won't be re-newing my BHS membership, I was only a member for the insurance and after several shocking 'approved' riding school experiences, and joining forces with the P's my mind is made up. I'll get my public liability elsewhere.
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Post by vikki on Jan 5, 2011 15:11:25 GMT 1
I didn't realise that they had endorsed this as good and not a c*8k up or misjudgement of some sort I'll have to find the interview but, essentially, Pat's regret was that he had used 'advanced' techniques in front of a non-Parelli audience who wouldn't understand what he was doing His implication was that if you don't follow the Parelli levels then you simply don't understand. Funny - this sounds a lot like an argument which is regularly used by Scientology in response to critisicm of their beliefs and religion. They argue that if you have completed the necessary levels of study in Scientology then you can't possibly understand the meaning behind the religion and therefore your accusations against it are unjustified and uninformed. The perfect argument to defend a corrupted and immoral organisation....
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Post by heather on Jan 5, 2011 16:15:25 GMT 1
The video of Barney is part of a level one training DVD, lucylou In other words, put forwards by the Parellis as suitable training info for a level one student! I think that the BHS been very remiss in not doing some simple research into the Parellis before advocating by association. Even if there is no intention to 'jump into bed' long term, with the Parellis, sanctioning this competition is tantamount to approval of their methods, and this is what I object to. Yes there are plenty of people out there applying those methods with reason and intelligence, but the two head honchos have publicly shown appallingly amateur timing and lack of feel in their handling, not to mention total disregard for the feelings of the horse. Heather
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Post by Catrin on Jan 5, 2011 16:38:08 GMT 1
Neither horse is scared, in fact the opposite in both cases. What evidence can you provide for this? What degree between "scared" and "totally confused" do you consider unacceptable? Both of these can be achieved without hitting horses. Both of these can be achieved within a few minutes without causing stress to the horse, its owner or viewers on Youtube. There is even a video link on here of another lady using apparent Parelli methods to do the former, with a horse that is much more agitated than the blind one. This is a value judgement, most of us have a different set of values that do not permit us to hit horses. This is at least one statement that you make that I can agree with, however you and I would probably disagree about where leadership becomes oppression. … and the world is a better place for people who do not stand by when violence is displayed. There are only two sides to be on; with those who shout out, or over the fence with the perpetrators and the bystanders who condone it.
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