companymagic
Grand Prix Poster
Horses are for life not just for riding....
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Post by companymagic on Jan 1, 2011 20:50:00 GMT 1
I need some advice please. I share a yard with 3 other ladies and one of them owns a 17hh Shire x Clyde.
To keep it short he has a number of issues but the main are
Separation anxiety Door Banging Box Walking Barging
Tonight it all came to a head, owner and I were due to ride out and she went to put his head collar on in his stable to which he bash through the door ( He had broken the hing already that afternoon) and ran off up the yard. Now we are well gated but I had just been to the muck heap and the gate was open to the trailer. Thinking there is no way he will go up there..
I was wrong, he went up the little wooden ramp in to the trailer turned and leap 6ft or more out of it and on to a pile of slabs that are out side our yard. Managed (god only knowns how) to stay up right and legged it to the bridle way at the back of said yard.
He bolted the whole length of the first track flat out, then realizing he is on his own bolted back. Passed me and frantic owner to the yard. No way back into the yard he head off down the main road to the next year at flat out gallop. Thank god he turned in at the other yard or he would have been in big trouble.
Where do I start with this one, he could have killed himself or others tonight, it has to stop.. He is 19, and his owner has had him for 9 years.
I have the joys of turning him out in the mornings, and have had to say to his owner if this do not get sorted I won't handle him.
I know the first things are RA, But I don't think she has the money for this.
Second, I feel that our yard my not be the right place for him as he hates being in and they are at some points in for a day or two over the winter.
But I need something that can help him now, tomorrow morning as I have to try and open then door again and not lose him.
I honestly don't think he is scared I believe he just knows how strong he is and uses it. In his owners words - "He just pushes at everything until it breaks, as yet he has not found anything he can't push his way out of" So fencing stables doors, etc etc.
Any ideas, or help very much needed.
Thanks
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Post by anastasia55555 on Jan 1, 2011 21:00:27 GMT 1
Yikes! I got a Dually for Apollo as being a shire x ardenne and previously used for logging etc he is very powerful. Generally he as daft as a brush but he can be a bit awkward especially when it means leaving food or running to get to food, and that has given me extra help with getting him to remember he can be sensible! possibly something to try. Apart from that i know you said she doesnt have the money to pay for help, but it will be a lot cheaper than the massive vets bills if he hurts himself or the massive insurance claims if he damages other people or their property. Has he always been like this or is it a sudden development? if its happened out of the blue i would consider a vets check over incase there is something wrong thats influencing his behaviour
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companymagic
Grand Prix Poster
Horses are for life not just for riding....
Posts: 1,739
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Post by companymagic on Jan 1, 2011 21:07:35 GMT 1
I have explained this to her and I have advised to look in the head collar..
Being he is not mine I can't make her do anything and of course if she doesn't want my help that's fine.
But just need any ideas other than the RA options she could try. If he was mine I would be on the phone right now.. But I can only try and do my best to help if she will take it.
Also I think some of the problem is the handler as to date in 3 months I have not had a problem with him. But after today I have been knocked a bit to handle him.. It was very scary!
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Post by anastasia55555 on Jan 1, 2011 21:20:24 GMT 1
I would think even a good instructor for some lessons on the ground would be a good start. Also reading kellys perfect manners might help. Doing some groundwork and getting them working together. Also she might have to consider that he isnt settling well where he is stabled either. If you can find someone with a blue dually she could borrow along with the dvd most importantly, she can see what she thinks before commiting to buying one. I know how hard it is to be on the sidelines because it does affect you but often powerless to do much. I know it might sound uncaring but we moved to a rented field for exactly these kinds of reasons
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Post by Mellymoo on Jan 1, 2011 21:24:52 GMT 1
I don't know if this will help, being that it refers to my 14.2 tank of a fjord, but here is how I stopped (mostly) his barging issues. I have a rope halter and 20' line that has been kicking about for years, and he was led in this for the first 6 months or so. The rope halter gives a little more control, and what I did was to have the long rope behind me, leaning on "I disagree", so that if he did tank off (and I could see him setting his neck) I braced for impact so to speak, and could anchor his head so that his impulsion spun him back to me. I don't know if this would help with a massive horse though, sorry.
Also, with the stable door thing, one of ours had a phase of barging - waterpistol did the trick!!
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Post by gordo on Jan 1, 2011 21:31:02 GMT 1
Gordo, at 17.2hh, would behave exactly the same as in barging out if I shut his stable door. He cannot bear being shut in and behaves explosively on his release! Could this horse be claustrophobic and unable to cope being inside?
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companymagic
Grand Prix Poster
Horses are for life not just for riding....
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Post by companymagic on Jan 1, 2011 21:43:33 GMT 1
Thanks all. I have a rope head collar from my old big boy (I use to ride in it) That just about fits but have lost my long rope however have some longer ones that I can lend her.
He hates being stabled - he hates leaving his pals in the field. But here he is so while a great idea is to turn him out 24/7 the reality is that can not happen.
To move him to a new yard means losing his friends again and thus I would expect him to again get worse. And at the minute just getting him out of the stable is an issue so let alone even thinking of loading him...
I have borrowed a Chiffney which I HATE using but needs must at the minute and until I or his owner have worked out how to engage his head and get him to listen I really don't know what else to do.
He is fine to be Ridden, which makes me think even more its not he is worried just rude.
I have Perfect Manners and will loan this to his owner along with my Perfect confidence book.. And I am on Kelly's Horse Psychology course in January so I hope I can understand him more after that but I still have to deal with him for 2 weeks, and his poor owner that tonight was left in floods of tears..
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Post by anastasia55555 on Jan 1, 2011 21:48:09 GMT 1
Just becareful with the chiffney if either of you havent used one before, can be a very damaging piece of kit if not used right. Sure u know that already tho :-)
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companymagic
Grand Prix Poster
Horses are for life not just for riding....
Posts: 1,739
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Post by companymagic on Jan 1, 2011 21:53:22 GMT 1
Totally.. But right now him falling through the muck trailer or getting hit by a car would be more damaging haha He is a massive rude monster and he won't beat me, I have brains somewhere.. Now just to work out how to use them...
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Post by happysnail on Jan 1, 2011 23:17:53 GMT 1
Would really be worth working through Kelly's 5 foundation exercises to make handling safer even if you don't have a dually halter. Where about are you based?
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Kayti
Advanced Poster
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Post by Kayti on Jan 1, 2011 23:30:00 GMT 1
On loan to reschool, I have since bought a 17hh percheron x Mare as we have been through soo much she is a fixture now. She was 4 when she arrived and displayed all the symptons you have listed above. I was the 4th home in 4 years so not exactly a wanted mare.
Maisie at some point had learnt that she was stronger and far more intelligent than the people handling her and when she wasnt sure or happy then she left. Over people, through gates, doors etc. She'd kick, bite, squash etc to get away and this was a first response not a 2nd or 3rd response. 18 months later on I am sure that most of this was down to a few facts, didn't trust the leadership of people, is stressed, insecure and generally confused about boundaries.
By no means sorted she now wants to be "involved" with people, there is affection and companionship. She was so shut down when she arrived she couldnt care if you were there or not, people where just a hassle to be avoided
I have to admit it was a hard road to get to this point. This is a horse that has learnt to ignore every softness, every attempt at conversation that a person could make. She knew she could just leave. So I had to be harder, stronger, louder and generally stricter than i would ever want to be with a young horse. I had to set some very very rigid boundaries for her to learn. But she had to know that when I asked her then she needed to listen. I had to get her attention, it is not safe to not know when she might leave and take me with her or trample me. Someone had made a mistake with her earliest education and I needed to sort out.
I used a Dually for a while, a bridle is the surest way to stop her when she really wants to go but mostly I used a rope halter such as the kind that Richard Maxwell uses, placed over a leather headcollar. This she respects. In the last 6 months I have used it half a dozen times rather than daily. My un-horsey OH can lead her in from the field.
So the changes are there but for a horse that has learnt to ignore people you have to be tough, mentally tough and brave until there is a response, then you can rebuild with a lot more softness. I can't say I enjoyed all of the journey so far, but I am much relieved at the positive improvements now and sometimes she has simply delighted me, like her first show last June when she behaved like a star, mannerly and calm.
As she has learnt the boundaries she has settled and calmed down considerably, she will stand in alone, she will hack alone, she will be left in the field alone. All these things were easier for her when she understood "how her world worked" if that makes sense. I have also learnt not to feed her anything with molasses in, that turned her into a hyperactive toddler!!
Dont ever forget gloves at the minimum! Feel free to PM if you want to
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Post by BJMM on Jan 2, 2011 9:35:45 GMT 1
I have pm'ed you xx
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companymagic
Grand Prix Poster
Horses are for life not just for riding....
Posts: 1,739
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Post by companymagic on Jan 2, 2011 10:29:55 GMT 1
Thanks all I am off up there now to try and turn him out which will be the first time he has been out in a few days and his pals will already be out in the field shouting for him so this is going to be a big test..
I have my gloves,Hat and body protector waiting, a rope collar and a Chifney I I have too.
Wish me luck I will let you know how I go...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2011 11:32:30 GMT 1
I know you have said that 24/7 turnout is not an option, but my gut feeling is that is his dislike of being in his stable is the cause of the problem for him, then all the Duallys/RA/etc. in the world won't solve it.
I would not even contemplate using a chiffney on a horse like this (or any other for that matter). If you add pain to the equation, you may well end up making things worse rather than better. A Dually may or may not help. If you're using it simply to hang on to with all your might, then it probably wouldn't.
Really, the solution has to lie in helping him be happier in his environment. If 24/7 turnout really is not an option, then the YO or the horse's owner may need to start thinking outside the box a little, and in this case for "box" read "stable". Might he be happier in a different stable where he has a better view of a favourite companion? Would he be happier with a chain instead of a door (I know there is a risk he might barge through it, but it's worth a try)? Is there any way of creating a safe space outside but near the others for him? I'm thinking along the lines of pen panels. I'm not usually a fan of the Heras type fencing, but in this case that might be an idea, with boarding around the lower half if he might paw at it and get a foot through.
It obviously depends on the setup of the yard, but hopefully if you think hard enough you'll be able to come up with a solution that makes him happier. Without the stress, you should no longer have the problem.
If his owner dismisses this, then do point out that his current behaviour is only a sign of him being unhappy. Even if you found ways of controlling him, it wouldn't make him any the happier. And surely she wants a happy horse, doesn't she?
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Post by mandal on Jan 2, 2011 12:02:48 GMT 1
Apologies as I hadn't read all the posts before posting. He hates being stabled - he hates leaving his pals in the field. But here he is so while a great idea is to turn him out 24/7 the reality is that can not happen. In my view to be blunt the yard needs to look at why that can't happen and if an environment suited to his needs can't be provided then moving to 24/7 turnout or similar may be the best. Yards reslly must be prepared to offer management that suits individual horses not try and force horse to cope with what yards want! Most of the problems would be solved if this were done in this case as far as I can see. Someone may get hurt into the bargin in the mean time as well as the torment he may be experiencing night after night. I know you have said that 24/7 turnout is not an option, but my gut feeling is that is his dislike of being in his stable is the cause of the problem for him, then all the Duallys/RA/etc. in the world won't solve it. I agree. From the sound of it he is stressed and anxious and his management needs to be altered to help him feel safe and secure as a first step I think. It may not be the right yard for him in the end if changes to help him can't be made. Tbh I think stabling him at the moment is too much for him to bear by the sound of it. How big is the stable? does he have enough hay/haylage? Is there a school he could be turned out in? What concentrates is he being fed? How long has he been there? How long was he at his last yard? Has he left a particular companion? Suggest the owner look back to when he was settled and happy and see what has changed from his point of view? I think changes need to be made asap for him but also for the safety of everyone there. I really feel for you all but especially for this big fella.
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