BIG horse BIG problems

[jill]

It really is a respect thing, and basically about relationships, usually with owner but if the owner won't or can't establish leadership, maybe you can - and you will learn a great deal that will stand you in good stead in future.
You can't do it on the occasional few minutes just turning him out - will the owner give you permission to do some groundwork with him? It will hugely benefit all three of you in different ways, and who knows, the owner may also learn from both you and her horse.

Establishing boundaries is the first thing, especially that of your personal space. I use a rope halter and a 12ft rope (Parelli style) and lead them around a school (or schooling area). Each time he gets closer to you than outstretched arms length, stop and either politely push him back or drive him back with rope between outstreched arms. He will soon get the idea. You will know he has accepted that when he follows you around the area and lets you dictate both pace and direction - if your timing is good you will only need a couple of sessions. Then keep it up turnng him out or bringing him in.
Long reining also helps establish who is in control, if you are experienced at it great, if not do you know anyone who is? It really does take the control away from them in a non confrontational manner, and establishes you as a leader in their minds, but you need to know what you are doing.
Maybe if between you you can afford a session with an RA you could both work through his problems and acquire lots of skill for future use.
But also take the time to teach him to stand nicely in a stable - and he must be able to see other horses. Feed him in the stable, and turn him out when he has finished, then gradually extend the time he waits to be turned out so that he knows he will, eventually if he waits quietly. It may only be a few seconds to start with - turn him out before he gets agitated, and build on that. The reard of being turned out is for standing quietky, hence don't wait until he is kicking and barging.
IT is all rewarding stuff and gains you skills you can acquire to call yourself a horseperson.

[mandal]

Right, is it worth really simplifing these problems? Here's my simplistic take on it from what you've written...

Problem = horse gets very upset in stable.
Reason = hates being in stable
Solution = get horse out of stable or provide a stable he is happy in.

Problem = horse flattening humans when coming out of stable and running off
Reason = horse really wound up and distressed/panicky after a night in his stable which he hates.
Solution = get horse out of stable.

Problem = horse breaking doors and risking his and others safety by panicky behaviour.
Reason = wound up because of a night in stable
Solution = get horse out of stable.

Problem = yard can't provide 24/7 turnout or doesn't suit owner
Reason = unknown
Solution = move yard or rearrange yard etc.

It really is that simple to me. Also trying to train a distressed anxious horse is pointless imo. Adrenaline up = learning down.

[companymagic]

Again thanks for all you replies taking it all in as I go..

I personally agree that the yard he is at is not perfect for him. However he has had many problems at other yards with 24/7 turn out. His owner tells me that the last yard he was at he became so attached to one of the horses there she was not able to bring him in or ride him as he would just refuse to leave the other horse. Before that he was at a yard where all the other horses left on the same day (I suspect this is where his issues started) and he then had to spend a few weeks on his own. (Terrified I am sure)

So this yard although it isn't great its better than ones he has been at. He has a nice stable herd to be turned out in. All the horses will never be taken away in one go. The yard rules state that no horse is to be left on his own ever. And he is stabled in a barn where he can see and touch other horses over night even if it is just over the stable walls.

He has plenty of Haylage over night and his stable is large to allow for him.

I also think that he gets very worried and stressed with any changes in his management. I think he needs a structure that he can get his head around. He is not always upset about being in, but if a horse is missing from the barn etc he starts to worry.

I have access to work with him, but that means I have to make the short trip down the road to our school at our main yard.. He needs to be safe enough to do that before I can even do ground work with him.

This morning he was turned out in just his head collar and didn't make a fuss at all. I just don't see a total pattern and its very confusing.

Will keep working on it. If only I have all the time in the world I am sure I could help him some what...

[companymagic]

Mandal -

Again I agree better turn out would be better but please remember this is not my horse I can not demand the owner moves him..

And second of all he has to be safe to lead even with 24/7 turn out which he has all summer, you can not lead him away from his friends as he refuses to leave them and often you are dragged back over the field or spend an hour trying to get his head collar back off. He has to be safe for vet, farrier etc. So just turning him out all the time won't tick all his boxes. There are still other issue here to. And Yes I agree it would make him happier to be out more... But I am not his owner and if she doesn't want to move him I can not make her.

All I can do is offer helpful advice and support her.

[mandal]

Jan 2, 2011 13:02:46 GMT 1 companymagic said:

Mandal -

Again I agree better turn out would be better but please remember this is not my horse I can not demand the owner moves him..


All I can do is offer helpful advice and support her.

Oh I know and sorry if I'm a bit blunt but as you can see to me the basic problem isn't being addressed. I see his basic problem as unhappiness and insecurity. Of course it sounds like there are training issues as well but purely training may well not be enough in this case.
Who wants or even can learn when they're constantly worried. In his case it sounds like being away from other horses is a major issue for him atm.

Mta. It must be a dreadful situation for all at the Yard. I know the owner is directing his care but the whole Yard is involved in implementing it so safety for all of you is a paramount issue.
What about all getting together and having a good supportive pow wow. Tease out the problems for him and the yard as a whole and together come to some management that gets things calm and manageable first and then work together on his training.
Leading training could start in the field with his mates where he feels safe and slowly progress from there.

I know it's very difficult and I'm sure the owner is very stressed and feeling inadequate, guilty, angry and all sorts of emotions so helping and supporting her is probably like walking on egg shells.

What about a get together as I said, form a plan to get calm and then have an RA out for the yard to advise on how to help him further? That way everyone learns is supported and work as a team.

Just some ideas which may or may not be helpful but it seems you are really all in this together in reality.

[gordo]

Agree with Mandal as this horse sounds so much like Gordo. Old enough to know better but he suffers from separation anxiety should his girlfriend even leave the field, the YO worries but I have said that if he is daft enough to behave like a loony then he will give himself a heart attack and to carry on doing what she wants to. G used to be in a barn set up with open stables so he could see everyone but he would still go up the wall should the door be shut. So, as a result I have only ever been able to livery at yards with 24/7 turnout and where I am now, he has the door open and there is an area on the yard fenced off and he can wander in and out. I guess this isn't an option? For me, if G was forced to be confined then it would be time for him to be PTS as it would be to stressful to make him do this.
Very difficult situtation

[lucky7]

My boy used to be bargey and hard to handle, and having an RA out was the best money I ever spent and I only wish I had done it sooner. He still his off days by I have the tools to handle him now in a way he understands keeping us both safe.
My boy also doesn't like being in and I have to make sure if he is in, he goes out first. He now lives out 24/7 because he is happiest out- I know its not your horse but his owner needs to think if it is the best set up for him, or perhaps she could go up early so he goes out with the others and isn't upset by them calling?. With my boy is he is anxious or upset that is when he can be difficult to handle.
Dually & a long line are fantastic and far better than a chifney IMO. It takes practise and hard work though, perhaps his owner could start working on the ground work exercises in Kelly Marks book as a starting point.
Hope you are able to get this sorted as it sounds like it is starting to get dangerous.

[milo]

have you tried magic calmer, i used it to help my new horse settle in he got so distressed it was frighteneing,i used the paste to start with and then the liquid form for a few weeks and it helped him to settle and not panic when he couldnt see the others, he now doesnt have anything and is ok.