|
Post by heather on Dec 6, 2010 16:40:58 GMT 1
I dont see a difference, Annabelle- ear/shoulder/hip/heel line is the same whether on a warmblood, an Iberian or a Shetland!! I ride horses of all breeds, but do not alter my position. Can anyone who does RWYM tell me why Mary has the toes some inches back from the knee instead of directly under the knee? I am not knocking RWYM, just trying to understand the rationale behind it, as a fellow rider trainer, rather than horse trainer. Heather
|
|
|
Post by jennyb on Dec 6, 2010 16:41:45 GMT 1
But let's not knock something because it doesn't work for us - there are plenty of folk who have got a lot from RWYM. Precisely what I have said several times on this thread - there are a lot of people out there who get a lot from it, and that's great. I don't think anyone implied it was evil either, did they??
|
|
|
Post by lisap on Dec 6, 2010 17:05:06 GMT 1
Going back to the OP's question: Do you remember, weebles - they wobble but they don't fall over? Even if you don't here is an exercise that will help you mobilise your pelvis. Feet out of stirrups (you can do this at halt or walk). Imagine your seatbones are little feet. First of all push your pelvis forward and down so that you are standing on the tippy toes of your seat-feet. You will be perched on your fork, with your back very hollowed, and your tummy sticking out. You'll feel your shoulder blades coming together and all in all it will feel pretty uncomfortable and unstable! Now rock your pelvis backwards so that you are on the heels of your seat-feet; or to put it another way, imagine you are a cowboy sitting on the pockets of your jeans. You'll find this a lot easier than the first position as you (the OP) naturally want to tilt your pelvis back and up. You'll feel your thighs/lower legs grip a bit, and your chest will close as your shoulders round, and your arms will stretch out in front of you a bit. Now rock forward again, and hold the position for about 5 seconds. Then rock back, but hold the position for about 2 seconds. Forward, 5 secs, back, 2 secs. Do this about 10 times. Now, rock forward, hold your position for about 5 secs, now just 'let go' from that position. Let your buttocks release, let your legs release, let your shoulders release. You will, of course sink back and down into the saddle as you let go of everything, but you'll be sitting on seatbones that point straight down, or on the flats of your little seat-feet. When you walk on the horse, you may well feel extremely wobbly in your pelvic area - allow that to happen, as it means that you are balancing on the points of your seatbones and your pelvis is no longer locked. the OP may feel *very* far forward at this point, as her sense of straight is actually behind the vertical, so a video, or photo, or whatever to show her that her nose isn't actually on the horse's neck will be a great reassurance to her!! Hope this is useful - have a go and let me know how you go on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2010 17:21:19 GMT 1
That's a really good point about getting a picture or video -often you feel like you're in a totally different position to what you're actually doing Heather, I'll dig out my RWYM book later and see what it says about leg position I suspect it's because she doesn't advocate riding with longer 'dressage length' stirrups so the leg is at more of an angle than I've seen you ride with (45 degree bend in the knee I think she aims for). I've had years of instructors trying to lengthen my stirrups only for me to then not be able to keep my feet in them, RWYM stopped all that. I do remember from the book MW says she doesn't do that, she doesn't think the longer leg position helps most people.
|
|
|
Post by heather on Dec 6, 2010 18:41:45 GMT 1
I think that yet again, it is the stirrup bar position that makes riders so insecure when they ride longer, Michelle. There is so much flap stuck out in front of you on the average GP saddle if you ride dressage length and quite often the thigh is off the back of the flap!
So it pays to ride shorter, as you feel more secure- me included!!- but I still feel that that the ear/shoulder/hip/heel line should not be compromised. I used to jump too, and fences up to Grade C height, and my jumping trainer taught me that the position should be the same as the dressage seat only with the angles more folded, but we were still in that ear/shoulder/hip/heel line. Mary had the riders toe almost in line with her ear in both lessons, which seemed odd to me.
Heather
|
|
auburnalia
Grand Prix Poster
Grand Prix Poster
Take more pictures, you can never have enough.
Posts: 2,681
|
Post by auburnalia on Dec 6, 2010 20:04:51 GMT 1
Going back to the OP's question: Do you remember, weebles - they wobble but they don't fall over? Even if you don't here is an exercise that will help you mobilise your pelvis. Feet out of stirrups (you can do this at halt or walk). Imagine your seatbones are little feet. First of all push your pelvis forward and down so that you are standing on the tippy toes of your seat-feet. You will be perched on your fork, with your back very hollowed, and your tummy sticking out. You'll feel your shoulder blades coming together and all in all it will feel pretty uncomfortable and unstable! Now rock your pelvis backwards so that you are on the heels of your seat-feet; or to put it another way, imagine you are a cowboy sitting on the pockets of your jeans. You'll find this a lot easier than the first position as you (the OP) naturally want to tilt your pelvis back and up. You'll feel your thighs/lower legs grip a bit, and your chest will close as your shoulders round, and your arms will stretch out in front of you a bit. Now rock forward again, and hold the position for about 5 seconds. Then rock back, but hold the position for about 2 seconds. Forward, 5 secs, back, 2 secs. Do this about 10 times. Now, rock forward, hold your position for about 5 secs, now just 'let go' from that position. Let your buttocks release, let your legs release, let your shoulders release. You will, of course sink back and down into the saddle as you let go of everything, but you'll be sitting on seatbones that point straight down, or on the flats of your little seat-feet. When you walk on the horse, you may well feel extremely wobbly in your pelvic area - allow that to happen, as it means that you are balancing on the points of your seatbones and your pelvis is no longer locked. the OP may feel *very* far forward at this point, as her sense of straight is actually behind the vertical, so a video, or photo, or whatever to show her that her nose isn't actually on the horse's neck will be a great reassurance to her!! Hope this is useful - have a go and let me know how you go on. Well, I dont know about Sophie but I think that is a really helpful post, I will try this too - its good to double check every thing's as it should be!! (Which I know it wont be!) Also its great looking into other "styles" of riding such as RWYM but I think its difficult on a shared horse just because he'll be used to one way and swaping and changing each time someone else rides must be confusing? I dunno? Soph - a riding instructor once said to me, "if you're not enjoying yourself, you're not in the right position" she was being a little crude, but it stuck with me!! lol
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2010 21:15:28 GMT 1
My RWYM Essentials book says about leg position, the knee must be out in front of the hip, not under it, and the knbbly bit of your ankle bone should be under your hip joint, which would put the back of your boot about level with your bum, though earlier in the book she says we're aiming for shoulder hip heel alignment - go figure!
Interesingly some of the pictures show the heel in line with the bum and others show it in line with the hip.
It says novice riders should aim to have their stirrups at a length where the thigh and calf are both at 45 degrees to the ground, no longer. More advanced riders should aim for more like a 40 degree angle.
|
|
|
Post by heather on Dec 6, 2010 21:36:20 GMT 1
Thanks Michelle- still not sure why the age old line of balance needs improvement! So where do you apply the leg to do reinback and piaffe, I wonder?
|
|
|
Post by sophielouise on Dec 6, 2010 21:54:53 GMT 1
This is very, very helpful - I shall print this thread off (perhaps not the photo's - I'm not sure I want to see them again as they are so dreadful!!) and get my Mother to watch me wriggling around to find my little seat-feet ;D Here's hoping I don't wobble off my seat feet onto my arse - I don't think it will be too soft a landing in this cold weather, indoor sand school or not!! I may or may not, publish any photo's of this experiment - depending on how successful I am at finding my seat feet! I actually love that wording - it might be my new favourite phrase
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2010 22:04:55 GMT 1
Thanks Michelle- still not sure why the age old line of balance needs improvement! So where do you apply the leg to do reinback and piaffe, I wonder? LOL I'm afraid you're miiles ahead of me there if I could only stay ON my horse long enough then one day I might find out ;D I'm hoping to go on one of Derek Clarke's clinics next year (on a school horse lol!) so it'll be interesting to try another approach.
|
|
|
Post by sophielouise on Dec 6, 2010 22:08:10 GMT 1
OK, I havent read through all the comments so I may be repeating some stuff, but, the ear/shoulder/hip/heel line, isnt exactly rocket science. It is no more than a standing position with your knees slightly bent, so that if the horse and saddle were whisked out from under you, you would be standing, knees slightly bent, and not on your bum or your nose! You tend to collapse your ribcage and the have your arms too straight. The first thing I would correct, is the arms, which are the cause of you rounding your back and shoulders. Bring your upper arm perpendicular, so that your elbow lies lightly against your ribcage. Just this one action will correct the whole torso! As always, the saddle is pulling your legs too far forwards, because the stirrup bars as too far to the front to allow the leathers to hang perpendicularly underneath your leg. This is why so many riders find it so much easier to ride without stirrups! I use few analogies but I do like to borrow Sally Swift's one of having a string attached to your hat. I like to think more of a bungee rope, as it gives the feeling of being stretched tall but elastically so. Without stirrups, let your legs hang down from the hip, and actually point your toes DOWN! I know this is the last thing most teachers will tell you to do, but to get your thighs stretched and stabilise your pelvis, this is the best thing to do, in walk to begin with, think almost as though you are trying to go on ballet points. hold for about 30 seconds and release, dont ever do it until you 'feel the burn' as this is tearing muscles, not stretching them! Ideally, I would put you on my simulators to do this, and also be able to teach you the precise synchronisation of your movement with that of the horse. For me, this is the first and most important thing to learn in riding, because from synchronisation with the horse, comes balance, and only then, can position be maintained. Lastly, look up! But dont pull your neck into the back of your collar, as is so often taught- again the bungee rope idea, will align your whole torso/head, without having to think about all the individual bits of you! Hope this helps! Heather I forgot to add, this has also been helpful, as has Jen1's and naturalneddies advice - sorry, some of it lost going through the pages and I'd forgotten I hadn't thanked the people who took the time to help! I will certainly try and put some of those exercises into practise - to see if I can feel how it should be. Out of curiosity - does anyone know the nearest simulator and perhaps even a position course, in the Surrey/West Sussex area?? As it would definitely be something I'd love to do if I could (and possibly more achievable than a few of the other things on my 'love to do list' - which does include marrying Simon Cowell!! ) Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time and effort to help x x x
|
|
|
Post by donnalex on Dec 6, 2010 22:25:26 GMT 1
The bigger your bum the harder it would be to get your heel back level with it surely? Really big people would surely nosedive is they pulled their heels that far back! So I assume heel under hip joint is more sensible, at least all of our hip joints are in the same place Serious question now Heather : Does the conformation of individual riders ie thigh to calf length ratio make a difference to how easy it is for people to get and keep the straight 'perpendicular' line? Some people have longer thighs and shorter cannon bones than others and some have longer cannon bones and shorter thigh bones. Some people have long legs and short bodies and some have long bodies and short legs. Whose legs are best? Is it best to have short thighs, that makes it seem easier in theory to me but Im probably very wrong! There is a rider in our hunt, a beautiful rider, one of the best, he rides very short but his heels are so in the right place on event type saddles and a TB type horse. His legs look about half and half I think. I shall see if I can find a picture and put it up. Found one, hope he does not mind, dont think he will see it though. Has there been any studies done or anything like it that says which legs are best? Mine are rubbish and never stay where I put them
|
|
|
Post by heather on Dec 6, 2010 22:44:21 GMT 1
Yes, the rider's conformation does come into play, Donna, very good point! If a very tall rider with long legs is on a smaller horse, then a more vertical thigh is not such a good idea, as he would need roller skates to keep up with the horse! ;D But if on a horse deep enough to take up the length of the leg, then this probably looks the most elegant.
I do find that long legs really help to engage the abdominals of the horse, having the leg well down and round the horse especially seems to help when collecting the canter.
Having said that, I was on the BHS stand at the SW Equine Christmas Fair, and Geoff Billington and Ollie Townend were the star turn. Geoff is like a sack of spuds on a horse and at 5'2" with legs he calles 'me stumps' he is still incredibly effective and seems to manage to avoid blocking his horse however unattractive his seat! (he has very good hands though). His horses have collection in canter that would put many dressage riders well to shame! So it doesnt always follow that long legs are best!
Men with big feet sometimes find that it can put their heels a long way back, if keeping the stirrup on the ball of the foot!! But the photo doesnt show an excessively large foot! I would prefer to see his toes a little further forwards though- he looks as though he is doing RWYM!! ;D
Heather
Heather
|
|
|
Post by donnalex on Dec 6, 2010 22:50:45 GMT 1
Dont know about RWYM but he has evented and done jousting I believe. He is always balanced has soft hands and his horses go really nicely for him in a snaffle. Quite often out hunting you can see big men leaning back over fences and sitting with their 'feet up' almost whilst having a stirrup cup. Would his legs look half and half? Do short thighs make it easy to keep the leg back a bit as the knee is not as far forward? Off to measure my leggies
|
|
|
Post by alexaandtess on Dec 6, 2010 23:09:11 GMT 1
I have RWYM lessons and I've never been taught to have my heel behind my bottom. My instructor teaches a correct hip, heel alignment, not back of your boot to the back of your bum alignment.
After recently seeing a Mary Wanless demonstration, I understood that she came about her way of teaching because she found it difficult to just 'be' in the right place. So by learning how the rider should be mechanically and then teaching that using analogies that the rider understood, the 'average' rider could learn to ride like a rider that naturally as 'feel'.
|
|