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Post by twinkle11 on Aug 4, 2009 14:44:43 GMT 1
may 07 my girl got lami to ,despite good diet and restricted turnout she also has cushings and IR which ive since found out.
she was 18 at the time im happy to say she was 20 this year and doing ok.
she got lami in all four feet and had as bad rotation as your girly in both fronts the left being worse.my vet didnt have much hope for my girl but i tryed EVERYTHING i could.i no its horrible but she did not come out of her stable off that DEEP chippings bed for 6months only for xrays of farrier visits.i think this had ALOT to do with the rotation not getting any worse.does yours come out on hard ground? how long has this all been going on?
i gave her a ball with high fibre cubes in too keep her moving around put her hay in little piles around her stable to keep her moving as it helps with circulation! tryed not to over do it with pain relief so she could feel the pain a little to make her rest her feet and lay down. she also had imprint shoes on which really did help her also feed her rosehips as they help with pain relief and circulation.
we got to about the 3-4months point and she handnt improved as much as i hoped she would so my vet had been trailing pernamax joint tablets and had had good suscess with two ponys that had bad lami like her he tried these tabs as a last resort for them as they reduce inflammation so was hoping it would work in the lamini of the foot and it helped the two ponys back to normal.
so i trialed them with not much hope ,but i really do think after this point is when she very slowly started to get better she was walking much more in her stable started to want to come out when i walked in so i would say after about a month being on them she was gradually coming out of her stable and put in the sand menage to have a walk about slowly she started to have a little trot by herself and canter eventually thats when i started to then walk her on hard ground.
im not saying they will work for you but hey you never no i would have tried anything.
she also had soaked hay or hifi lite as a hay replacer also had hifi for dinner and break she was also on acp's to begin with from the vet as they help circulation.and small amounts of bute daily that slowly she came off of to see how she would do without it.
i really really wish you all the luck in the world with her as i no first hand how heart breaking it is to see them like this. i really didnt think there was a light to the end of that lonely tunnel but keep going.
i had lots of friends to keep me going just keep trying for her you will no if not to when the time comes huge hugs ask away for anyhelp any time.
and getting a second opinion from diffrent farrier diffrent vet never hurts even if you just ask what they think. i did. well 3 diffrent vets and 2 farriers lol
my girl is now on vitex for equids or harmonise both agnus chasteberry herbal remedy for cushings. magnesium equine amercia double recommended dose this really helps her ges pulsy without it. hifi lite msm joints formula4feet vits and mins salt rosehips
she is in a bark paddock with soaked hay as she cannot have ANY grass what so ever due to IR and cushings.
read loads have you been on the cushing yahoo group or the metabolic horse yahoo group they will have LOTS of good info i spent ages on there reading up on things!
what are you feeding your girl at the moment?
also one last thing i treyed pergolide with my girl and she had really bad side affects that made her lami uncontrollable. but i no that it works for lots of other cushings horses.
its a long old haul stick in there hugs good luck
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Post by shadowofachance on Aug 4, 2009 15:04:03 GMT 1
Thank you all for your support.
Diet.... Hay is soaked for 12 hours and although is not ad lib she very rarely runs out Couple of handfuls of Hifi lite twice a day Handful of pony nuts in a snack a ball twice a day Laminshield Horse Lick left in stable 1 x bute twice a day
Box rest since April 21st - apart from vet, farrier and walking out a couple of steps after imprint shoes were put on to check on improvement.
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Post by mandal on Aug 4, 2009 15:15:16 GMT 1
May I suggest that you do contact Jackie Taylor about diet it may be a big help. Jackie will know the best way to go, I personally would cut out the hi fi lite and pony nuts both do contain sugar also I don't know about lamishield horse lick but most licks do contain mollasses so I would replace that with a good balancer (TS anti lam) some of the balancer could go in the treat ball and she could have a small amount of unmollassed beet (speedibeet) to give rest of balancer and magnesium oxide as well as salt. Do contact Jackie though to see what she says her advice I believe has been invaluble to many.
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Post by Karon on Aug 4, 2009 15:17:03 GMT 1
I'd cut out the lick and the nuts, too, add magnesium and a good balancer or supplement and contact Jackie to see what else you can do with the diet. Has she got a really deep bed, right up to the door?
Good luck. xx
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Sam C
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Post by Sam C on Aug 4, 2009 15:24:08 GMT 1
It sounds to me as though the underlying cause hasn't yet been identified and treated - unfortunately that's probably the most difficult part of dealing with laminitis. I cannot begin to speculate on what the answers might be, but there are professionals out there who can help. As others have already said, I'd start by joining Jackie Taylor's yahoo group, The Metabolic Horse. She is your best bet to ensure you're getting it right diet wise, and can also advise you on how to arrange blood testing, what to check for, and what the results may mean. You will also find files on things like the various shoeing or other hoofcare options, although I personally think the Imprints can be very effective provided the correct trim is applied underneath, so you may find sticking with this approach proves to be the best option. I'd also be having a good long chat with your vet, asking for his honest opinions, explaining how you feel and what you're worried about, and trying to set up a plan so that you can be clear in your mind about what specific action is being taken to treat this. If you're not happy with the answers, or don't feel you're getting the support you need, there's nothing wrong with getting a second opinion. Ask around for recommendations of vets in your area, although it can be a bit trial and error TBH. I personally wouldn't recommend getting a barefoot trimmer involved at this stage, at least not to take over completely. In my experience, pulling the shoes on a case like this can be a complete disaster if it's not done with extreme care. Suddenly dumping the weight of the horse onto it's soles with such severe movement of the pedal bone is likely to cripple it even more, and potentially worsen the damage to the sole. Removing the shoes can be extremely successful later on, once the cause has been removed and the feet are a little more stable. But even then it often requires you to get rather creative with hoof boot and padding arrangements, which I don't believe is what you need right now as you're probably confused enough. Having said all that, an experienced trimmer (or another farrier) may be able to take a look at your horse and point out any issues with the foot shape and trimming that could be slowing down the recovery, and discuss this with your current farrier. Treating laminitis seems to be 90% diet, and with things having gone so horribly downhill in your mare's case (I don't mean to upset you with that btw), you definately have bigger problems to solve before worrying about the finer details of hoof balance, but anything that can help is worth a try. In the meantime, don't be tempted to keep walking her out the stable to check how she's doing, she needs total rest until you've got this under some control. I'd also mention to Jackie about what the vet has advised regarding the amount of hay you should be feeding - you didn't say specifically but I get the impression you've been encouraged to feed less than what might be considered the minimum amount? Weight loss is necessary in a fat horse but so is a healthy, stable gut, so you may find you can make some adjustments there too. I wish you the best of luck. Please don't hang around with this, speak to the experts and whatever route you decide to take, put it into action ASAP. Edited to say: cross posted, I see you've been keeping her on total box rest so ignore the bit about not walking!
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Post by twinkle11 on Aug 4, 2009 15:31:00 GMT 1
i would also cut nuts until she is doing well! and go for something lower in sugar like high fibre cubes when you do add them back in. i would also add magnesium. you have got to give her some food to put her supplements in hifi lite is one of the lowest you can use. just to add rinse off the gunky water that the hay is soaked in after removing it from being soaked. be careful about vits and mins as some cant handle certain ones like mine cant handle the topspec makes her very foot were as she can handle the formula4feet but othere are the other way round or not quiet as sensitive i would defently disscuss this with jackie as it might be worth adding just a powdered form vits and mins like v biotic until see is stable then working out which pelleted form your girl can handle and more specialised to a lami horse speak to jackie at metabolic horse you can also ring her i did www.metabolichorse.co.uk/pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse/
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Post by mandal on Aug 4, 2009 15:32:39 GMT 1
The other thing I forgot to mention is no treats like carrot or apple or especially polos, just in case someone is feeling sorry for her. I second SamC's advice about the amount of soaked hay too, the other things she is getting imo are more of a concern re weight and sugar content and her gut needs to be working.
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Sam C
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Post by Sam C on Aug 4, 2009 16:27:09 GMT 1
I agree on the pony nuts, but can I just clear up the fact that Hi Fi Lite contains about as much sugar as Speedibeet. They are both pretty much the lowest sugar feeds on the market (not sure if Fast Fibre has a similar amount actually?) - far lower than a lot of the feeds from the likes of Simple Systems, which people seem to assume must be better for their laminitic/overweight horse.
No molasses doesn't necessarily mean low sugar, and no feed is totally sugar free. Besides, whatever feed you choose in a case like this should initially be used purely as a base for any powdered or nasty tasting supplements, so you really shouldn't need more than a handful or two anyway. If you think about the average sugar content of hay being approx. 9%, which you can reduce to around 6% by soaking (there's no evidence to suggest that on average you'll get more than a 30% reduction), then something like Hi Fi Lite is still lower than that. So even if you're needing to feed a kilo of the stuff every day to get supplements in, it's unlikely that the sugar content is going to cause a problem.
And before anyone brings up the argument of the dreaded 'Mould Inhibitors' again they might want to do a bit of research into the sort of rubbish that gets spread all over the fields they get their hay from, because I doubt it's a majority who do know.
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Post by shadowofachance on Aug 4, 2009 16:39:04 GMT 1
Hifi lite is on the lami trust approved list so I thought that this would be ok.
Quantities are so tiny I use the dengie to hide the bute and the nuts are counted (8 nuts, sad I know but she loves her ball it is a highlight) and in a double feed ball so takes a long time to get out.
I thought the lick was a good idea... "Laminshield products allow a safe, palatable and easy way to supplement magnesium for horses, ponies and donkeys. Veterinary scientific researchers agree that magnesium is very important as a factor in hundreds of crucial reactions within the horse's body, including; The insulin response, protein synthesis in the body, maintaining normal blood circulation and the function of excitable membranes.
There are a number if reasons why magnesium intake may be low, including diet, season or environment. There are also biological reasons for an animal to have low magnesium status (lower than normal level of magnesium in the body may be caused by the breed, in response to disease, or the body condition of the animal).
Providing a mineralized lick supplements the animal with not only a blend of five sources of highly bioavailable magnesium for up to 3 months (depending on lick appetite), but also provides essential sodium and chlorine from premium Cheshire salt, Bioplex zinc and copper, sulphur and iron to help maintain hoof, coat, skin and general body condition. Also, providing a lick to a stabled horse helps to reduce boredom. Can be used in stable, field shelter or sheltered part of the field. Daily intake of 30g will provide 3g magnesium Lick appetite varies for different animals."
I have asked to join the metabolic horse site on Yahoo and another that Lorraine kindly sent me.
Hay was limited to about one section twice a day but as she has lost so much weight and pulses have eased greatly vet is happy for hay to be increased as long as it is soaked for 12 plus hours. So I say she is on approx 5 sections a day but doesn't eat all of that. She is much happier having more hay and has now slowed down hence not eating full net.
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Post by mandal on Aug 4, 2009 16:42:52 GMT 1
Good to know all that Sam. I always say that about alfalfa a lite because I know/believe some horses are very senstive to alfalfa... mind you I suppose some may be sensitive to beet. I'd better stick to just giving links to Jackies Group and Website. What about the lamishield horse lick? Do you know Sam?
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Post by donnalex on Aug 4, 2009 16:48:11 GMT 1
Laminshield has magnesium in it. It is not sweet at all, it is a gritty type of salt lick, made by Rockies, minerals only.
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Post by twinkle11 on Aug 4, 2009 17:36:36 GMT 1
second that about lamishelid i had one for my girl when she had it but wouldnt touch the thing as obviusly wasnt nice enough.
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Post by kizzysmum on Aug 4, 2009 21:33:36 GMT 1
Hi Hang on in there, i still am, my mare had lami from may til may this year. She had to have rasping and her tendon cut. My mares rotated to far back the opposite way once she had the op. She had imprint shoes on also which gave her thrush. It was so hard at times she was in so much pain. She was in for nearly a year but she was so good. She also had heart bars on. She only now has normal shoes on i have only been riding for a month, but i have noticed she has bruised hoofs again. The farrier has said i can still ride but to take it easy, i am un sure so i have the vet coming tomorrow to double check. xx
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Sam C
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Post by Sam C on Aug 4, 2009 21:42:34 GMT 1
I always say that about alfalfa a lite because I know/believe some horses are very senstive to alfalfa... mind you I suppose some may be sensitive to beet. Yep, there are some who seem to be sensitive to everything! But they are a minority, so when giving advice, or making our own personal decisions, we just have to go with what is 'most likely' to be safe. Nothing is ever guaranteed but people need to feed something! SM is right, laminshield is a high Mg mineral lick with no additional fillers. It's a very good product if you can get your horse to take enough. Oh bless her, I've got tears in my eyes now. This is the stuff that really gets to me as I know exactly what you're both going through. Any tiny thing you can come up with to make their day a bit more bearable, is huge. Carry on with the nuts.
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Post by kizzysmum on Aug 4, 2009 21:55:05 GMT 1
my girl loves her ball, wouldnt deprive her of that x
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