melissa
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Post by melissa on Mar 18, 2009 16:38:42 GMT 1
Don't worry mandal, all 3 of my horses are barefoot!! lol
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eden
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Post by eden on Mar 18, 2009 16:49:38 GMT 1
Mandal watched that link foxey feet with shoes and without!!
I think I may turn into hoof geek!;lol
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Post by chrissiew on Mar 18, 2009 18:01:14 GMT 1
As someone who's been on both sides of the fence so to speak barefoot wise (my mare was barefoot for 3 years, now shod due to health reasons), I would say try without the remedial shoeing. My friend's boy has severe navicular disease (not syndrome) and bony changes to both front coffin joints, he had some very expensive remedial shoeing from top natural balance farrier (so done very correctly) and it hasn't helped him half as much as taking all the shoes off, having some time out for his feet to harden and recover and being trimmed correctly by a very good farrier.
He was written off virtually a few years ago, but is now happily hacking out in boots and schooling barefoot. My friend is even considering dressage again, which is amazing if you saw this horse's original xrays and how uncomfortable he was. He still needs care, attention and a little bit of caution for his ridden work, but its definitely been the way forward for him.
Melissa, you are in my neck of the woods (just down the road I think) and the farrier my friend uses is Becky Mabbutt and she has been absolutely first class with helping this particular horse and his navicular.
Best of luck.
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Mar 18, 2009 19:17:28 GMT 1
Thanks Chrissie - yes I know Becky and from my experience she is excellent. However she wasn't taking on any new clients last time I asked I may try her again though. My horse hasn't had shoes on though, so how could/would the trimming be different/better for him
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Post by Catrin on Mar 18, 2009 19:35:48 GMT 1
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Post by chrissiew on Mar 19, 2009 11:20:18 GMT 1
That is the trouble with Becky, she is so good, she's always very busy - I couldn't get on her books either.
Having said all that if the horse has been barefoot for life and the foot is trimmed well already etc, then maybe remedial shoeing is the way to go. Nowadays I tend to never discount anything, as what suits one horse doesn't suit another and I have been proved wrong too many times when I have been adamant I don't want to try "xyz".
Certainly shoes were the best thing I ever put back on my mare (different issue as connected to a tendon injury).
I think someone on another board made a good point recently during a discussion regarding shoeing or not shoeing a horse which had various issues. Sometimes we have to accept that whilst for most horses barefoot is best, sometimes we are dealing with what really should be classed as a "disabled" horse, so sometimes patching them up and making them as comfortable as possible for as long as possible is all we can really expect to be able to achieve and shoes can and do make horses comfortable in these circumstances - they don't fix, but they can give relief.
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pd
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Post by pd on Mar 19, 2009 12:27:52 GMT 1
Oh heck now I'm confused! Sophie I know looked like she had no heels but in fact they were under run so needed to be allowed to move to their correct place to give proper support. Sorry, there is so much information I could write I book, I'll try to explain what I meant about growing heels in this type of situation. Long toes and flat feet = ground parallel coffin bone, or even worse a negative palmer angle. This needs to be addressed to give relief to the pressure being applied on the navicular bone which is ultimately causing the pain the horse exhibits. So, with shoes, the farrier would raise the heel artificially, thus giving temporary relief to the navicular bone = horse looks relieved and comfortable - every one's happy. BUT, what happens next is the short heels get crushed under the shoe, and grow forward not downward, so the foot never gains any height of its own, this is only gained artificially throught the shoe, or by adding wedges under the shoe. Eventually you run out ways to add angle as the heels crush further forward and the foot collapses lower towards the ground. Then you've got big problems (believe me I've done this route and lost the battle many years ago ) So the alternative is to encourage the horse to grow its own heels, and lift its own coffin bone up to relieve the pain on the navicular bone. To do this you have to encourage the horse to land and use the foot properly. A good balanced trim is ace, but in these conditions, I find you need to lower the toe more than normal, (normal caveats about this only being done by a skilled person). This relieves the excessive pressure being applied to the heels, and you will start to see a flat landing foot. This allows you to remove the part of the heel that wants to curl forward, and then bingo, they start to stand up and grown at the right angle again. These delicate structures need protecting from wear at all times whilst they're recovering. In a few months you find the height that was missing starts to come back, the horse gains comfort and the foot keeps the balance between trims. You need to address the diet to be successful with this, you need a tight white line to give the heels the strength they need to lift the foot, any LGL will inhibit your progress.
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Post by mandal on Mar 19, 2009 12:32:23 GMT 1
Thanks for that pd. Let me know when the book is out. Do you think that in most cases a flat foot has an under run heel rather than no heel?? The heel has moved/been pulled forward by the long toe??
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Mar 19, 2009 12:42:22 GMT 1
Thats interesting pd Right I have had the vet this morning and I have tried to remember most of what she said 1. LGL/laminitis - she thought no, there were no signs of it on x rays or when she checked him over. 2. Navicular - yes she said there are bony changes to the navicular bone on the x ray although they were not *very* bad but they were visable all the same. 3. Sore heels - yep and the reason he stands with his front feet out in front of him is because he is trying to relieve the pressure from a tendon that runs tightly at the back of the foot. 4. Pasterns - she looked at the pasterns and fetlocks on the x rays and there was nothing to be concerned about. She thought his feet weren't inherently bad, yes his toes were slightly long but nothing major. We discussed shoes and trimming and she told me the pros and cons of both. If we put shoes on with wedges he may seem worse to start with becuase it will change the angle of his pastern and may make him sore there. She said you wouldn't really know if shoes helped until he has been done a few times. So it would be trial and error. She offered a full lameness work up but she said she probably wouldn't bother if he was hers due to the fact he isn't ridden and his age. There are probably a few things going on not just the navicular ie arthritis. Vet is going to ring my farrier and discuss it with him. So I am still wondering what to do next
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Louise
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Post by Louise on Mar 19, 2009 12:42:39 GMT 1
I have only just skimmed this thread so apologies if I am repeating anything, but who trims your horse at the moment and have you consulted them about what the vet has said? And, if so, what is their opinion as they know the feet? I would highly recommend that you get an experienced trimmer to come and assess your horse to see if they can give you any advice (if you haven't got one already - although to be honest there would be no harm in having a second opinion anyway). As others have said I would be very reluctant to put shoes on unless it really was a last resort in your case. Unfortunately, a lot of vets/farriers often prescribe remedial shoes without necessarily understanding the 'cause' of the problem - they treat the 'effect', which as people have said is usually fine, but only for a short time (that is a general statement by the way before I get into trouble ;-)!)
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Post by maggie555 on Mar 19, 2009 12:44:03 GMT 1
Comment on the blue quote above: Getting the toe wall and back wall of the hoof to be parallel to the pastern unfortunately can't guarantee that the bones from the fetlock down are aligned properly. I think the farrier is right to point out that the alignment of the bones has to be correct for balance, but in case of a foot with a flared wall or underrun heel, the hoof capsule (toe wall and wall at the heels) won't reflect the alignment of the inner structures (i.e. pedal bone). A large part of a the training for barefoot trimming consists of learning to see how the inner structures of the hoof relate to the hoof capsule, and to balance the foot with respect to the inner structures. That's why I'd go the barefoot route.
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pd
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Post by pd on Mar 19, 2009 12:46:50 GMT 1
Thanks for that pd. Let me know when the book is out. Do you think that in most cases a flat foot has an under run heel rather than no heel?? The heel has moved/been pulled forward by the long toe?? Never seen one that doesn't have heels yet, unless someone has trimmed them all off! They always grow, its just what direction and whether they're trimmed off, or wearing away faster than they can grow.
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Post by mandal on Mar 19, 2009 12:56:56 GMT 1
;D Thanks I'm not confused any more. Good luck Melissa...
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pd
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Post by pd on Mar 19, 2009 12:57:56 GMT 1
In reply to Melissa's questions:- 1. In my experience, most vets don't recognise the subtle underlying LGL symptoms that I have found to be vital. Low digital pulses are a key indicator, only when you can't find a pulse are you absolutely free of LGL. (I know it sounds bonkers, but its hard won knowledge believe me!) Does the horse have any crest on its neck? Another key factor. Does he have a grass belly, even when he doesn't get much grass? All key indicators of an LGL prone horse. 2. OK, not ideal, but workable then. 3. Yes, this is the tendon that pushes against the navicular bone, the problem however is the foot balance and coffin bone angle. 4. Great, but what about the angle of the coffin bone, this information is what you need to know, it should be at about 5-6 degrees (rear higher than front) I bet their level or even lower than that. (Don't panic, this can be resolved). Her overall view is promising, but her comments on the effects of shoeing show that she has no confidence in what outcome it will bring, this is typical of vets I've encountered, they just don't know what to do to resolve these foot problems - I do genuinely feel for them in this situation. I had this diagnosis from x-rays on my horse a year and a half ago. My vet suggested shoes with wedges, of course I killed myself laughing at him and we agreed to differ. 6 months later he came to review what i'd done and was and ;D to see that I'd turned her around completely barefoot with the method I described earlier. He leaves feet up to me now!
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Mar 19, 2009 14:06:32 GMT 1
Thanks pd - I didn't aske re the angle of the coffin bone He doesn't have a crest at all and no grass belly. I have asked for a copy of the x rays. Going to re read your post pd when I have a little more time
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