Frozen watchfulness

[mags]

what are ppl's thought and definition of it?

[HeatherL*]

In what circumstances Mags?

[wally]

I bought a horse about 10 years ago.

He came to me with a frozen expression. In the Icelandic world I have heard it reffered to as "machine face"

The horse makes no moves towards you, he won't focus on you, he just tries to anticipate everything and do everything really well in the hope he won't get a row.

They just stare ahead and won't engage you. There is tension through the whole body, ears may be pricked but it is a look of nothing.


If you offer a treat from the hand they may not even acknowledge it is there, they won't take it.

IME they can go one of two ways, suddenly explode and do everyone and themselves a damage, or you can gently get them out of their shells and get them back into a two way conversation.

If the former occurs it will be a long up hill struggle, if the latter happens it will be over months rather than weeks.

I am happy to report the boy I bought is no longer a "machine face" he's a happy, little chap who I adore.

He's the kind of pipe and slippers chap, with a big baggy cardi. Reads H&H and posh gardening mags. He's interested in all people now and will look you in the face and takes a treat from the hand with gentle appreciation. It took 12 months though.

[wally]

This isn't the one I refer to above, it's a new, unhandled baby, he spent a few weeks with this kind of expression when you did anything with him.



But is soon softens if you are going the right way and they will speak to you.

[mags]

Well I was just wondering if it would apply to jack, I see what the previous owner meant by the rabbit in headlight thing. It seems to be the main problem. And its making even something as simple as feeding him hard work. Which with him be so thin is not good.

He just spots stuff, anything, in the distance and just freezes. Head up and frozen solid heart beating. I try moving his feet and turning him away but you cant get him back. and then he doesnt finish his dinner. He doesnt do the normal spook then after few seconds chill when it seems ok, he just carries on to the point where today I wondered if he can see properly. Tomorrow is the vet again and not looking forward to it as I know he will find something again to freeze at. Other than this he is seeming like a normal spooky TB.

He is certainly teaching me a few things bless him. Not had so many questions to ask about a horse in a long time lol

[mags]

Thats interesting thanks wally. He is certainly friendly and likes to engage but when he freezes he wont register. I tried sticking his head in the bucket lol and he still stood staring for ages without touching his food

[beany1]

Love those pics Wally. I think of it as though they are sinking into a 'place' in their own mind, to escape the pressures put on them.

Mine took a year to stop doing that He had been with the same owner since age 3 and she gave him to me age 24 - he found it very difficult. Now I can confidently say he loves me, and I never see the frozen watchfullness

[mags]

thats sounds more like dan beany, he has a tendency to withdraw into him self. Jack is different. He is genuinely spooking at some thing but just freezes and stays like that.

[wally]

I think of it as though they are sinking into a 'place' in their own mind, to escape the pressures put on them.

That's it, but the ones I have worked with went through the motions with out giving it a thought. no fire, no spirit no enjoyment of being with you.

"I'll do what you want, don't hurt me, let me get out of here"

[Kelly Marks]

Pie was like that when I first got him. Yes all you learn about training is so important but there's nothing like a year's worth of good old fashioned LOVE to make the difference...

[june]

One of the polo ponies was like that when he arrived. The first sign that we were getting through to him came when he felt brave enough to kick the door at feed time. Never thought I'd be pleased to hear a horse do that!

[beany1]

I see what you mean Mags - rather than 'withdrawing', you mean when they appear to 'spot' something in the distance? My TB has started doing this ever since I put him in the field next to the pigs - he is terrified of them.
When he does it, I assume he HAS heard/seen something, and because is in an anxious state of mind I just can't seem to penetrate it. It's almost a relief when he does shoot forward or whatever he is going to do - the suspense kills me lol!

[wally]

With my guy there was no interest in anything, the frozen stare was at nothing. Almost fear of being noticed.

With these horse there is that joy when they do something a bit cheeky , like kick the door at feed time. OR even have a poke at your pocket to see if anything is forthcoming, then they sometimes recoil at their own behaviour; that they could have been so brave and forward.

[horsey123]

jimmy did this when he came to me as a 2yo semi un hadle welsh stalli but he would aslo run backward and rear but never take his eyes off the place he was quite scary and i had a few broken ribs form it

i found out that when this got so bad was to work him loose in the school of pen and groom him and if somthing scared him i would sing a happy song and keep brushing him if he ran back i simpley put my hand o his should ad went back with him did say aything to him just kept brushing him

i aslo use clicker training witch i think made all the difference when he froze i would give gentle squeezes on the lead rope and as soon as he looked away or looked at me i gave a click and a treat and soon he stoped the frozen stare looked at it for a second then looked a me all i sed was good boy and carried o what we were doing it worked a treat

3 years later he still does a little bit of this but with the singing and clicker the stares are no longer then 5 seconds

[tammy68]

I know exactly what you mean. In human psychological terms I believe it is know as learned helplessness. It is where they are too scared and uncertain to know what to do and so they do nothing.

My horse had this when I bought her and I misguidedly thought that she was just extremely well behaved. She would stop eating and even chewing when you went into her stable with her. She seemed so well behaved. Then, one day when I had a saddle fitter fitting her for a saddle, she just flipped. I had left him on the yard with her tied up whilst I went to fetch some stirrup leathers and irons. When I returned she had pulled away and he said she bronked across the yard and went into a wooden get smashing it. The poor bloke was frightened to death and kept on repeating that he hadn't touched her or done anything at all. Anyway, to cut a long story short, it took about 2 years before I even heard her neigh and now she eats when I'm with her will lie down and not get up when I go up to her and is always whickering to me.

Unfortunately she had a fall in the field about 18 months ago and had a lump come up just belw her patella. The vet thought it would cause her long term problems and recommended that I have it operated on. I expressed my concerns as I know how sensitive she can be and how untrusting she is of strangers - expecially men. I am sure he thought I was being OTT and making a deal out of nothing as he referred to her as being chilled. We went ahead with the op which in itself was a success, however she frightened him and the staff as she tried to get up in a panick as soon as they started to bring her round after the op and she cut her legs and head above the eye in her thrashing about frenzy. He phoned me to say he thought I had better fetch her home as she would get better quicker there. Two days after the op she was still shaking slightly. When I picked her up she wa shaking through her whole body and was steaming and sweating so much that it was dripping from her body. The trailer floor and walls were foamed up and dripping when I got her home. The vet could see exactly what I had meant and said he'd never seen anything like it before as she was so laid back and chilled at home.
I have been told that when she was in Ireland she was given electric shocks with a cattle prod to make her jump higher in jumping lanes and to load. She was blindfolded to get her in to the lanes and then loose jumped whilst being given electric shocks somehow to make her pick her legs up. This explains her being so quick and powerful with her back end when jumping and also why she loads into a lorry like a train, bless her.

I would not and could not ever bring myself to sell her. I am sure that she thought she was going to die when she went to the vets and because she had let her guard down and trusted she no longer had the defence mechanism of her frozen watchfullness to see her through it.