|
Post by arabmania on Dec 24, 2008 23:31:14 GMT 1
people usually leave this sort of behaviour to be dealt with behind closed doors. so could be said that they felt it was deffo needed or acted on reflex? i, too would be disappointed at this kind of behaviour, especially as we look up to these people for inspiration. I always think the saying 'never meet your idols' is something to think abut due to our 'idols' not always being up to epectation.
|
|
Caroline
Grand Prix Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 2,277
|
Post by Caroline on Dec 25, 2008 18:35:15 GMT 1
Have you ever ridden a truely difficult horse? Comments like this are fine if you have a perfect little horse who never puts a hoof out of place, but flipping heck. If my horse doesn't want to do something for a good reason (pain/illness) then I wouldn't dream of asking him to do it, but if he just doesn't fancy it... tough. I don't believe that it is right to let a horse decide what they do/don't fancy doing. I have ridden a wide range of horses over the 32 years I have been riding. If anything, I am attracted to horses that are not initially inclined to co-operation. I refuse to call any horse difficult though. I think it is horses that have difficult humans not humans that have difficult horses. If you go in with the attitide that you have to win and are prepared to use pain, intimidation and force to achieve that, then you will either meet with reluctant compliance or defiant objection. Either way, there is little victory when there is a loser. I don't think it is my riding that is of interest here though. Clearly it is not a matter of public record. Nevertheless, Monty and Kelly are whip-free non-violent riders and trainers. I don't think anyone would accuse them of only being effective with "perfect little horses".
|
|
|
Post by bramblesmum on Dec 26, 2008 1:16:43 GMT 1
caroline no-one would say that but I am sure they wouldn't be insulted as earlier suggested by a member using a whip due to semi disablement and fore refinement and driving uses
|
|
|
Post by ladynowak on Dec 26, 2008 2:03:19 GMT 1
I call my horses difficult, because they can be, they aren't easy horses.
But there is always a loser if there is ever a battle of wills between horse and rider/trainer. Just most of the time you can get your horse to accept the 'right' answer as the easy answer without too much trouble. Would you ever accept "No" as an answer from a horse?
Also the pain(uncomfort?- where is the line between the two?), intimidation and force is a huge grey area- IH uses all of those things, just not in the "I BEAT YOU WITH THIS STICK" sense (which I think everyone is agreed is wrong). You also get the reluctant compliance/defiant objection even if you ask in the nicest possible way. But anyway, off the point slightly, I just resent people who make sweeping statements about whips that are misguided at best.
|
|
iammizz
Grand Prix Poster
U CAN KISS IT XX
Posts: 2,680
|
Post by iammizz on Dec 26, 2008 11:18:24 GMT 1
agree with lady regarding whips, willow has never been hit with anthing in her life, as neither has ben, u go in the scholl with a lunge whip and they will free school as long as that whip is directing them, i think body language and force of use are the main factors xx
|
|
|
Post by waverider on Dec 26, 2008 12:51:46 GMT 1
I think someone mentioned earlier part of the problem is improper training. I was chatting to a young girl (14) i know who has represented britain in the youth equestrian team at the olympics. She has travelled all over the world with her horses, her father breeds them and trains her. And i happened to be talking about my horse and said i did a couple of half halts and she said whats one of them. She had never heard the term i was amazed, and i was told that she just is put on these fantastic ,sensative,showjumpers and she just steers and has nerves of steel.( she verified this herself laughingly) No i am not one to knock her because she has more guts than me i just couldnt help wondering how much better she would be with some knowledge behind her as well. The trouble is a lot of the horseworld value thereselves and opinions/ methods very very highly and they refuse to believe any other way but theirs is acceptable.
And as long as they keep winning the rossettes whos going to question them?I have more admiration for the little girl who passes my house every day on her ex riding school horse, ridden in a halter, relaxed and happy after weeks of struggling to get her out alone.
|
|
Amanda Seater
Grand Prix Poster
Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
Posts: 3,866
|
Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 26, 2008 16:58:46 GMT 1
To the person who said that a horse reacts to the whip because it has been beaten with it or some such in the past Though that in many cases may well be the truth I TOTALLY DISAGREE THAT THIS IS 100% THE CASE. Interesting thing about the untouched horse I have a youngster who has never been beaten or even seen a person with a stick or a long rope. He arrived to me having only been gently herded. I put his head collar on the first time and loaded him just 1 month ago.and have put in much work before asking the following. So an untouched horse sees something be it person, rope, human, dog, Cyberman, etc, he is not familliar with and reacts to it. As simple as that . Now I have NO intent to beat him! my intent is to move him, to teach him my language and the responses I wish form him to a certain que. I can do it with my body but more acurately with touch (my arm an extension of my arm) ( a Cyberman may be a little heavy to do this with!). I find that to aim a rope at a point on him makes him react more excessively? - (not the word I wish to use really ) if I use the stick to point at a spot he moves away, but more calmly. I put this down to seeing the whip on its aproach, as he would my hand, rather than it suddenly flick in and out of his vision. I have to keep my energy very low and my intent is "move away at walk - shoulder or haunches"for example. As looking at the point is not acurate I want to explain " this is what I would like please" I only say the above as observations to share with you all and I say again until I did it this little horse had seen neither long rope nor stick. I do NOT want him to fear the stick or react abruptly, that would have no acurate or any use as I would not get the response that I desire unless it was perhaps " move out of the way now a fridge is about to fall on your head", . I want him to see it, be calm and then think "hmm what does she want?"and I choose stick because it is light weight and solid as an extension of my arm - I think he now does see it as this, as I can touch him all over with it. Hopefully soon he will associate the direction of my eyes and energy to move this way or that on the floor and I will no longer need the que to be clear When I ride him and use a seat que for example to say "move this leg" and expect him to react by moving this leg. Why should he uderstand? I expect him to either not react or try something or he will say "er what does that mean?" I can then touch with the stick ( because I can't reach without shifting my weight and confusing him) and say " move this leg please"
So in response to the original comment about a horse will only react to a stick if it has been frightened by it - NO NO NO NO - the horse will react to just about anything that moves - he is a flight animal. It is up to us to train the response or lack of it that we desire. And most of all to be confident in our team of two.
Hope this makes sense
|
|
iammizz
Grand Prix Poster
U CAN KISS IT XX
Posts: 2,680
|
Post by iammizz on Dec 26, 2008 18:43:20 GMT 1
really nicely put amanda hun x
|
|
Caroline
Grand Prix Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 2,277
|
Post by Caroline on Dec 26, 2008 18:46:41 GMT 1
To the person who said that a horse reacts to the whip because it has been beaten with it or some such in the past Though that in many cases may well be the truth I TOTALLY DISAGREE THAT THIS IS 100% THE CASE. What I said was: "Unless a horse has never been hit with a whip, I do not believe that horse can consider a whip to be a tool of subtle direction. "Thus, I allowed for the case where a horse had not been whipped in the past. Yes, I realise there are exceptions - horses have a database in their heads of things that won't hurt them and they need not be afraid of and all new things are under heavy suspicion until experience shows the horse they are safe - at which point that thing gets filed under "OK". Thus an unwhiped horse could respond with fear to a whip simply because it is unfamiliar. I also agree that a horse understands intention very well. Nonetheless, I believe it is possible and ethically preferable to conduct our relationships with horses without the use of whips. I think we have a responsibility to demonstrate whip-free horsemanship to those around us. I would hope that no IH person would use a whip to inflict pain - but we don't always get the chance to explain that to others that see us with our horses. If we can put only one message out to the horse world, I think it should be that non-violent horsemanship is effective and ethically preferable. I think it is hard to make that point with a whip in your hand.
|
|
iammizz
Grand Prix Poster
U CAN KISS IT XX
Posts: 2,680
|
Post by iammizz on Dec 26, 2008 19:05:23 GMT 1
i personally dont ride with a whip all the time , just never been my thing, but does that cross over to lunge whips etc, i dont see any prob with lunge whips or even schooling whips, im short, a real mini so sometimes the added length etc is a must have.
|
|
|
Post by cbc on Dec 26, 2008 19:42:34 GMT 1
I can see what you are talking about Caroline, but agree with Amanda. I learned long ago that the whip was an extension of ones arm, especially when you are at a distance such as lunging. Over the years I have met many horses whose owners have said, oh you cant lunge with a whip, my horse is afraid of it. That to me is a big failure on the part of the handler.They have not taught the horse to listen, just to be afraid. Very often the horse didnt lunge at all, just ran round in circles. So the education to work happily with the whip just hasnt been there. The most effective use of a schooling whip I have found is to use it to tickle. It helps you reach bits of the horse as well when training in hand.
The old saying as we have seen before is that the tool is only as good as the hands that guide it.
|
|
|
Post by bramblesmum on Dec 26, 2008 20:14:02 GMT 1
Caroline sometimes a whip or other tool is necessary and not in violent terms but due to disablement or in order to safely drive a horse
|
|
l17
Olympic Poster
Fizzy boy!
Posts: 695
|
Post by l17 on Dec 26, 2008 20:59:32 GMT 1
I don't feel that I have to be a role model to other people. As long as I am happy in the way I ride my horse and he is happy then I will continue to carry a whip. People have given lots of good reasons to carry or use a whip and I think it is unrealistic and unnessecary to expect everyone who uses the IHDG to give up a tool they find useful. Fizz particularly likes the stick with a plastic bag on the end I use for target training and clicker! Lx
|
|